The Zim Family Cocker Spaniel Forum

Hello, All!

Before I even get started, I just want to say that I am in NO way trying to start a feud, or make cause for any harsh/bad feelings.....so, please don't send hate mail or kick me off of the forum. I just need some help with understanding something about breeding: WHY, OH, WHY do people continue to breed dogs, when there are SO many still being killed in shelters? PLEASE help me to understand: WHY?!?

I'm sitting here at my computer, listening to 20 snoring cocker spaniels - not because I'm a breeder, but because I run a cocker spaniel rescue. Four of these are my own, personal adopted cockers (I could never purchase one, knowing that so many are killed every day, just because they are homeless), the other 16 are my foster dogs. We have 5 foster homes fostering 6 others as well as their own adopted cockers. There's a waiting list as long as my arm, of cockers waiting for a vacancy to get in here, and STILL, we turn away an additonal 4-6 cockers EVERY SINGLE DAY!! 42 EVERY WEEK! Everything from puppies on up to seniors.....every color, males and females, of all ages. This is just from one small rescue, in one state, and then there's also all the cockers that don't get a second chance, and are killed every day in shelters. And, they aren't all from back yard breeders, because we've also had cockers from champion bloodlines come through here (their identities will remain anonymous). MANY have come from owners who purchased the cockers from "reputable breeders".

So, maybe someone here can help me understand?? Why do people continue to produce more cocker spaniels, when there are so many being killed every day? I really do want to understand, but I just don't get it. THANKS!

Terri,
If we didn't have reputable breeders who health test and breed for specific traits, we would no longer have specific breeds. In my opinion, the real question is why don't people spay or neuter their pets?

I do understand that you are asking because you care about the dogs. It's wonderful you are able to foster. Not everyone is able to do this so thank you for giving thses guys a second chance.

THANKS, Karen!

Okay -- I get the part about health testing, and breeding for specific traits. I love that part, I guess. I would never-ever want the cocker spaniel breed to become extinct! What I'm not getting is: there are hundreds of healthy, well-behaved, good tempered cockers killed EVERY WEEK....yet, people continue to produce more puppies, more dogs are killed, more puppies are born, more dogs are killed... I feel like if there was a 10 year moritorium on breeding, there would STILL be cockers coming through my door. Yes, I also question: Why DON'T people spay/neuter their pets??

You're right -- not everyone can foster. But, I think everyone SHOULD, at least once! If people walked in my mocassins for a week -- or, even a day, and experienced seeing all the dogs that are killed (lovely, loving, funny little cocker spaniels), I bet they'd think twice before producing more puppies. But, no one wants to see that part -- no one wants to admit that there's a problem, much less do anything about it! I guess not everyone can be a breeder, either -- personally, my conscience couldn't take it.

I also feel that another big part of the problem is the fact that everything in our society these days is so disposable, and people don't want to make the lifetime commitment of pet ownership. The minute a pet doesn't fit into someone's lifestyle just perfectly, it's kicked to the curb. The dogs are expected to act perfectly, train themselves, clean up after themselves, groom themselves, never get sick or injured -- I'm amazed every day that two people cannot handle having a dog AND a baby at the same time. I wouldn't give up any one of my boys for the world!

THANK YOU for responding, and not in a defensive manner. You're so right -- I care about these dogs....so much that I go to work to support them (and myself), and from the time I get home from work, until I collapse in bed in the wee hours of the morning, I'm running ACSR and caring for cockers. If not, who will? I don't go out on dates, out to the movies, on vacations, go shopping, etc. -- I work, take care of cockers, and ocassionally eat and sleep. THANKS for hearing me out....I'm just so DARN frustrated! Maybe because usually a task/project has a beginning stage, a middle and an end. This one never has an end.....they just keep coming in the door, and the ones that don't, die.

THANK YOU, Juanita....it's nice to be appreciated! I've learned over the years, and definitely believe, that money truly IS the root of all evil. We've re-homed mother/son and brother/sister breeding pairs -- it's cheaper for breeders, instead of breeding outside the gene pool. Health testing costs money, proper veterinary care, nutritional food, grooming (even if you do it yourself -- time is money, I guess), etc. -- it all costs money. Money = greed = evil. To me, there's NO excuse. So, there's NO excuse for killing all these lovely dogs every day, either. Precious, loving cocker spaniels, who never asked to be here to begin with -- killed because of no fault of their own.....just because there's way too many of them. THANKS for your support.

I agree with some of what you're saying Terri. I'm kind of in a unique position, in that I firmly believe in responsible breeding, but I also feel that there is way too much breeding in general. The thing is, responsible breeders (really good ones) aren't typically contributing to the strain being placed on rescue. And let me clarify here - just because breeders show their dogs and breed puppies with champion bloodlines doesn't mean they're truly reputable. As with everything, there's a distinction there.

I've bred one litter in 15 years. I had one puppy survive from that litter, and I placed him in a great home. I have also contributed to rescue by donating a ton of money, organizing fundraisers, fostering three Cockers and doing transport when I can.

I have a very strong belief that EVERY breeder should contribute to rescue, preferably by fostering. I realize that it's not possible for everybody, but I think it really opens peoples' eyes to the reality of rescue. Seeing pictures is one thing - being a part of things is something else entirely. I wish there was a way to get more breeders involved in rescue. I promote it at every opportunity, but I don't seem to be that successful.

Getting rid of breeders entirely isn't the answer. Finding a way to get rid o BAD breeders is a major part of the answer. The majority of Cockers in rescue come from people that just wanted one litter out of Buffy, or people that figured they could make a quick buck off of selling puppies.

As for people feeling like their pets are disposable - I wish I knew the answer. Pets are a lifetime commitment in my world and I get disgusted by people just casually throwing them away for no good reason. Yes, sometimes people genuinely can't keep their pets, and I am more than willing to help those people, but most just can't be bothered anymore.

People that do rescue are angels. They deal with (and see) the worst of the worst on a regular basis. The good thing is that they also see good on a regular basis. Great foster homes, amazing adopters, and donors that come out of the woodwork when most needed. It's not an easy job, and I think most people appreciate it. I sure as heck hope they do!

I agree with Kelly.



I Also Agree with Karen...you have to realize, without the breeders - there wouldn't be dogs to rescue - that sounds horrible coming out of my mouth, but its true. Those dogs came from SOMEWHERE, and 85-90% of the time, its from either A) A Puppy Mill or B) "BYB" who thought they could make some money off some puppies by breeding Fido & Fluffy, but turns out a litter of puppies is too much to handle - let me go drop them off at the local shelter, they will SURELY get adopted! Chances are, an adorable puppy WILL get adopted, but not always. Then there are those dumb owners who decide one day they want to go out and adopt an adult dog without looking into it first, and end up stuck with a dog who has separation anxiety, isn't housetrained, not that great with kids...so they think the most logical thing to do is drop them off at the shelter, rather then calling in a professional or even asking for help!

I have a Rescue and a Breeder dog. Henry, my 8 years old Labrador, is a Rescue who I assume was abused prior to me getting him. He's terrified of EVERYTHING. Water, Cars, Trashmen, not great with other dogs...you name it. But its been 8 years since I got him, and i wouldn't give him up for the world. We've worked with him! When he was 6 years old, I got Rudy. He was NOT thrilled. He literally sulked the entire day. Giving me the "When is he going home?" look for WEEKS. A few months passed, and he let up on it a little but growled if Rudy came anywhere near him. Now, Rudy is almost 2 and Henry is 8 and they are basically inseparable. They get their moments where they want to be away from each other, but other times they are best friends.

What I'm saying is....I completely support Rescue 100% and I've been volunteering with Heart to Heart Cocker Rescue for quite some time now...and after seeing what these dogs go through, it breaks me heart. But I also support Breeders who actually know what their doing....if they didn't exist, we wouldn't have ANY of the breeds we have today......

Em --

THANKS for your reply. I totally realize that if it weren't for breeders, (as well as uncommitted dog owners), there wouldn't be cockers to rescue at all. And NOTHING would make me happier! I wish there would be a day, when there were NO cockers to rescue....or, at least, very few. That would mean that they were all living happily and FOREVER, in their loving homes.

A majority of the cockers who come through our rescue originally came from "reputable" breeders in our area. Breeders who claim they will take back unwanted puppies, but don't. Breeders who were producing champion bloodline cockers, and claim to take back their dogs, but don't. Out of ALL the breeders in our area (both BYB, and otherwise), the ONLY one who has ever helped with ACSR is Julie Hydro.....and she may not even be breeding any more, I'm not sure. Julie (and Mike) have been a tremendous help to ACSR, and I appreciate their support more than I can express.

A few breeders in our area have pumped out an enormous amount of cockers. Some come here with their pedigree papers -- they're all related! So, I guess there's no real solution to the problem. There's no way to enforce "reputable" breeding practices, prevent back yard breeding, or convincing dog owners that it's a lifetime commitment and making them stick it out. ACSR has made a difference in the lives of hundreds of cocker spaniels....but, it just seems like a drop in the bucket, when you see how many are continuously killed......for no GOOD reason.

I hear you; I understand. Now let's remember Cockers are just ONE breed that's being abandoned. We are in a pretty sad state here in USA right now. I love my Sadie and will adopt another rescue when I get ready. But adopting two hardly makes a change when thousands are abandoned. I doubt most of the abandoned ones ever get that second chance.

Thanks for doing what you do. I know it's hard. You are in western WA, I believe. I checked eastern WA to see if there was a Cocker rescue, and I don't think there is. Just think those poor cockers don't get much of a chance to have a second home.

Bless you for all you do!

Terri,

I don't know how long you've been doing rescue...

I was completely involved in cocker rescue in the San Francisco Bay area for 2.5 years - we rescued and placed about 250 dogs in that time. And it seems that we made a permanent impact in the numbers of cockers needing rescue - 6 years later we still seldom see a cocker show up in a shelter here. I have to think it has to have something to do with us getting 250 dogs spayed/neutered; just think of how many fewer litters that is!!

Just a small bit of hope for you.

Just a couple of comments . . .



To me, if they say they will take dogs back but don't, then they aren't responsible breeders. A big part of breeding SHOULD be considering what will happen if your pet owners can't keep their dogs, and ensuring that you can be of assistance when needed. IF somebody can't take a dog back (as there may be valid reasons), then they should be giving money to rescue to support care of that dog until an appropriate home is found.

I know that some of the breeders in your area do promote themselves as reputable, when in fact they will NOT take dogs back or provide financial support to others that are caring for those dogs. I would love to be able to publicize some of those names (especially the ones that are always breeding and producing more puppies), but I can't. It's not the right way to do things. Those are definitely the kinds of breeders that give the great breeders a bad name . . . that's for sure.

Hi Terri

I would like to thank you for the help you give this wonderful breed. I agree entirely with you and most of what I feel has already been said previously. Just a little thing I would like to mention - here in England, the Kennel Club runs an Accredited Breeder Scheme whereby the breeder has to adhere to certain rules and regulations when breeding. When I purchased Toby a few weeks ago, the breeder and I signed a Contract of Sale, one stipulation being that, Heaven forbid, if ever I had to part with Toby for any reason, the breeder would take him back from me and find another home for him. I know this does not help the poor mites having to be put to sleep on a daily basis, but it is one little step forward in trying to prevent the amount of pets ending up in shelters or being abused. I think being a member of this scheme is optional but I would like to see it made mandatory. If every breeder signed a contract to say they would take back and rehome any of the dogs they have previously bred, if necessary, would surely help this sorry situation.

That sounds like a wonderful program.

It might help in SOME cases, but....If you think about all the breeders who crank out litters of puppies like there is no tomorrow, the chances of those puppies being re-homed SOMETIME in the future, is a pretty good chance. So if you compare the ratio of puppies this breeder is making, and the number of people buying them, somewhere along the lines..the dogs will be re-homed. (wether its when the puppy is 4 months or 4 years, or even 14 years) Then of course, lets say the people who bought a puppy from said breeder move thousands and thousands of miles away. Now, who pays for the plane ticket/gas to get the pup/dog back to the breeder? IMHO, Its easier for the "big time breeder" & for the dog owner to just drop the dog off at a shelter, and not even give it a second glance. Its cruel and wrong. I just wanna be like Remember the easiest way is not always the right way... Then we're stuck trying to get the dogs out, and save their life.

It also frustrates me when I see a Breeder who has like 6 litters of puppies available, then they complain they can't find homes for them, but they keep on breeding....Like Seriously?? Then they say 'Its not for the money' when it obviously is...why else would you need 6+ litters of puppies ALL at once?

I have to say, from being on this forum I've met some awesome breeders who aren't doing it for the money, they're doing it for the love of the breed and truly want to better the cocker. This is not aimed at them AT ALL. I think you guys know who you are!

What has been said is all very true. I have had five dogs and two of them have been rescues. I doubt I could foster (although one day I would like to try) but I can't imagine loving a dog and then passing it on to another. Maybe I could but frankly I am not comfortable even trying to foster if I didn't know that, should it fail, I have room in my home for another. The other thing to consider is that not all rescue dogs are happy, healthy, well-adjusted dogs. Many take a great deal of time and effort to help them get over their initial issues. Our own Jean and Isabel are prime examples of a beautiful dog needing an appropriate home and the amount of EXTRA love, training support, etc. that goes into helping that dog become what she can be. People that do have the time to take care of a pup and train it, guide it, love it may not have the time to help it overcome other issues (let's face it - that takes a lot more time). In some cases people want the security of knowing they brought up a the dog around their children, pets, etc. so they are more comfortable knowing the pup's background. And - let's face it - puppies are darn cute and many people want to raise the pup to adulthood for the experience - just like many people if adopting a child want to take a baby instead of a six year old.

You are doing incredible work and I am grateful to all of you that do it. I look at my Maxine and am so grateful that because of rescues she is safe and "home". But I do recognize - even in myself, that after I lost my Coriander, I did want to pup to love and train. I am only grateful that there are rescues/rescuers such as you and there are also responsible, respectful breeders such as Erika and some others here.

Terri, I can only imagine how you feel. Literally imagine. The few dogs that I have helped you with always leave me thinking how anyone could give up such an incredible dog.

I don't know how you do what you do. Any good rescue for that matter. Making the decision about who can be saved and who can't, where your money is best spent etc. We've had this discussion many times. I personally could not do it.

I have been and continue to be appalled at the comments about rescue from our 'good' breeders up here. It absolutely makes me sick to my stomach. When I hear these things, it seriously makes me question my involvement in the breeding world.

As far as why we still breed, I think there is a different motivation for every breeder. Mine is selfish. I've been breeding this same line of dogs since I started. I know what health issues (or not) I am dealing with, I like to show dogs, and I breed my own show dogs. Except for my two all the dogs from my last litter are spayed or neutered. My boy will never be offered at public stud nor will he ever produce an accidental litter in our neighborhood. Toph will be bred once, I will keep one puppy, all the others are spoken for in excellent homes, all to be spayed or neutered, many of these homes have been waiting for a long time. This will however be my very last breeding.

I DO take back puppies, no matter how far away they are, how old they are, or how sick they are. They are my responsibility for life. I am so sorry that not all breeders see it that way. I've been shocked at the number of raids on breeders that have dogs from other people and those other people do nothing to try and get them back. I have paid people twice what I sold a puppy for, flown them from thousands of miles away when someone has gotten a dog from someone I sold it to in an unscrupulous deal. As with everything in life, I've lived and learned.

I think a lot of people see rescues as a dog that was somebody else's problem. In fact I know they do. I have customers who I try to talk into rescues all the time. They have no idea there are breed specific rescues, that so many of the dogs are perfectly good dogs, with NO issues, that just found themselves in need of a good home for some reason or another.

There HAS to be some breeding, or the world will cease to have dogs. It's just that simple. It would happen. It's just a matter of education and getting the word out there. About what a good breeder REALLY is, and what rescue is all about. And people NEED TO LISTEN AND FOLLOW THE ADVICE!

MJ --

THANK YOU! It's scary, isn't it? I've thought many times, about all the other breeds that are also abandoned. I find it disgusting that there is a pet euthanized at the rate of 9+ (25-30% being purebreds) per minute in this country -- we ought to be ashamed of ourselves! reference: http://www.bigdogrescue.com/stats.html

Yes, we are in western Washington, and to my knowledge, we are the only cocker spaniel breed-specific rescue in the Pacific Northwest. We take in cockers from Montana, Idaho, Oregon, and all over Washington -- and, have cockers adopted out as far away as New York, Hawaii, Michigan, Texas, California, and into Canada.

Thank you, Chris!

I've been involved in rescue for about 10 years, now. I started out fostering, transporting and doing home visits for Seattle Purebred Dog Rescue (SPDR) and then Ginger's Pet Rescue (and I currently help any other rescue that needs assistance in w. Washington). From there, my efforts evolved into forming ACSR. We really felt the impact when SPDR's cocker spaniel representative stepped down -- that position has yet to be re-filled. I was asked to take the position, and I only would if I could clone myself......there's not enough hours in the day. Over the past 10 years, I've adopted 5 cockers of my own -- Scrutly (now 16 yrs. old), Cooper (12-1/2 yrs. old), Jack (passed away Mother's Day 2009 at the age of 16/17 yrs. old), Sammy (going on 3 yrs. old) and Frisco (from Houston, TX -- 12 yrs. old). I've never purchased a dog from a breeder or a pet store -- afterall, I get the cream of the crop coming through ACSR! LOL

NO cocker leaves here without being spayed/neutered, first -- NO exceptions. I hope that this is in some way making an impact. I've had people call and/or email me, wanting to know if we had any intact males that they can breed with their cocker bitches. Any male would do -- they didn't care anything about health issues, breedlines, etc. SERIOUSLY!! They obviously had no clue what "rescue" is about.....but, believe me -- they did when I was done with them! LOL

I want to thank everyone for not beating me up over my question, for understanding my side, for your kind words, advice and encouragement. As I stated earlier -- I sincerely never-ever want to see our breed become extinct. I just wish that at the end of the day, there were no cockers killed just because they are homeless. I wish ALL breeders would be as responsible and ethical as those that have replied, or have been mentioned here -- those who strive to produce quality cockers, who don't mass produce them, and care about their futures.

Today, we made a family of 3 (husband, wife and 14 yr. old son) very happy. They adopted Clancey2, and will be accepting him into their home tomorrow night -- making room here for the next cocker in need. Clancey2 is a very special, handsome, well-behaved 1-1/2 yr. old boy. I'm tickled to have been a part of saving his life, and placing him with a loving family. If only they all got a second chance to have a great life! He has a bad haircut here -- only had the big mats chopped off of him....

We couldn't beat up on you, dear, you are "in the trenches." So happy for Clancy2 - he's a pretty red one. I'll bet he's gorgeous with his new cut.

Thanks for helping our sweeties.

This is what also gets me fired up (in bold). Some people are SO stupid!!! I've personally read first hand the stupid questions that are sent to breeders and rescues everyday. One my breeder still tells to this day, was this lady who emailed her who owned a MALE dog and then proceeded to ask if she could breed HER MALE to my breeders female. My breeder was a little shocked by this, but continued to question her and see what all she knew about breeding, and was the dog an actual quality dog, etc. Well, the conversation ended with "So my last request is that when the litter is born, I come to collect half the puppies. We can split the litter even". My breeders mouth hit the FLOOR. And basically went on to rant about how this lady had no idea what she was doing, and to neuter her dog ASAP. She also went to point out that puppies come in litters of all sizes and there is never an "even split" of puppies - not to mention that how would the puppies nurse with just a dad? She tells everyone that story just for laughs and to generally make fun of this woman to her friends, but I can't help but think there are people out there who ACTUALLY think that. Its a little disturbing.

As for spaying & neutering your dog, you are doing a HUGE impact on the breed when you spay & neuter the ones that DO NOT need to be bred. I honestly don't understand why people leave their dogs intact when there are no plans to breed. Of course, there are exceptions like some sort of health problems or even if you adopted the dog at like, 12 or 13 when it was probably too old to be spayed/neutered. I own 3 cats and 2 dogs, ALL of them are spayed/neutered.

Congrats to Clancy too! Thats a pretty cocker! Good luck!! I also want to say that I would never beat you up for what you do.
You're doing an AWESOME thing!

Terri, I would NEVER beat up on a hard-working rescue person such as yourself. I've been involved in rescue in a variety of ways for several years, and I have met some incredible rescue people. In my personal opinion, rescue people are akin to angels on earth. They constantly give their heart and soul to save these dogs and give them a shot at a better life. I totally respect that - and I can understand why rescuers would want to see the end of breeding, with so many lives being lost.

I kind of see my role as an intermediary sometimes. I try to get rescues and breeders to work together, the way Julie works with you guys, and the way I (pseudo-breeder) work with other rescues, to benefit the dogs. There are some breeders out there that do an awesome job of helping rescues. But there are also some breeders that do an "awesome" job of creating work for rescues . . . even some so-called reputable breeders.

I am shocked and sickened by the attitudes of some big-time breeders when it comes to rescue. The good news is that for every rotten breeder, there's a good one. And while they may not contribute to rescue in a hands-on fashion, they donate money and time when they can. Some of them are very low-key about it, not wanting thanks or anything, just wanting to help.

I'm with Julie - they key is EDUCATION. Education about rescue (to breeders & potential adopters). Education about breeders (to rescue & potential puppy buyers). And education about how people can help (to every Cocker lover out there).

The problem is though that such a contract is legally not enforceable! So although it's a nice gesture and will make some buyers (and perhaps breeders) think first before dumping a dog in a rescue, a breeder can't actually be forced to stick to the agreement (and nor can the buyer). Rescue organisations in the UK will tell you that they too get many dogs from breeders that should take their dogs back, but don't when it actually comes to it. I don't think the UK is any different in that respect to the US.

The accredited breeder scheme is great in theory, but as long as you pay, you can basically become a member. Again, it's a nice gesture, but at present not very effective.

Terri, i will never understand it either. I cannot even look at one more litter of puppies, all I wonder is whether they will end up in the shelter someday. It is frustrating for sure, I could even get it if the breed was not coming into shelters in such huge numbers. I like you, would like to look at pet harbor and not see one cocker!! We started a blog just for the cockers sitting in shelters in danger! Thank you for saving so many wonderful cockers.