The Zim Family Cocker Spaniel Forum

Hi! I personally am not a breeder. So, my knowledge is limited at best. Most of what I know I have learned from reading this forum, but since the crash only limited posts are available now.

I have contacted a breeder (25+ yrs) about one of her furbabies. I asked about health testing. She said the dam is 7, so she is past the age of testing.....is that accurate? The sire isn't even two yrs. yet but will be tested when he comes of age. Both pedigrees are outstanding, but there in lies a bit of a red flag to me....this breeder is hugely promoting the heritage of these puppies more so than the actual parents of this litter. Also, there seems to be a small amount of linebreeding.

I need some knowledgeable folks to help me sort all this out. What are your thoughts?
Thanks!

A Spaniel's major health tests would be:

- CERF (eye exams, done annually until the age of 8, when the dog is declared Permanently Clear, although some breeders continue to get eyes checked annually past that age).
- OFA or PennHIP for hips at age 2 or later
- OFA for knees at age 1 or later (not all breeders do this one)

If a breeder chooses to, they can do the following tests:

- Genetic tests for PRA (progressive retinal atrophy) and PFK (phosphofructokinase deficiency) can be done at any age
- Thyroid tests - typically recommended at ages 2, 4 and 6 I think

I would have a few questions for this breeder. Why breed a 7 year old female? It's safe and can be done, but many breeders retire their girls after age 6. If she's an exceptional producer, or this is going to be a very special litter, then I can understand it. Why breed a male that's not 2 yet? How close to 2 is he? When I wanted to breed Grace and Jack Jack, he was literally three weeks away from his 2nd birthday. He had already had his eyes and knees checked and a preliminary rating from OFA on his hips. Has the breeder at least had this boy's eyes checked? That can be done at any age.

What makes the pedigree outstanding?

Linebreeding is nothing to get overly excited about. Lots of responsible, caring breeders use linebreeding appropriately when planning puppies. That in itself wouldn't raise a red flag for me.

Kelly said it all

"What makes the pedigree outstanding?"
Both sire and dam pedigrees are "almost" all CH. Many recognizeable lines. (i.e. Tell-Tales, My-Ida-Ho, Sugar France)

As for the age of the sire, all she said was he would be health tested when he reached the appropriate age in a couple/few months. I was concerned when she stated each in a different section of her reply. I couldn't find his dob in any of the pedigrees or her replies. I was also concerned when I learned that not only is he the sire of this litter but also of another litter only four days older.

For the dam, she turned 7 this past Nov. her last litter "3-4 yrs ago". I am not the best judge of quality, but from the pictures of the puppy I'm looking at.......WOW! The pics of the parents have me captivated also. But I don't want looks to be the basis of my decision. If I've learned anything from this forum about searching out a good breeder, it's follow your head not your melting heart.

You're welcome to PM me with questions about specific breeders if you want . . . I can give more information that way if you want.

A pedigree with champions in it isn't outstanding in and of itself - any dog can earn a championship with the right handler and lots of money. Typically a champion is a good representative of the breed, but this isn't always the case. There are some lovely dogs that aren't finished for some reason, and there are some poor examples of champions out there.

If the dog isn't turning two for a few/several/couple of months, then I'd wonder why she was using him. Why not wait another 6 months, until he's old enough for testing? And again, are his eyes at least checked? There's NO reason for those not to be checked. On the female, ask for copies of papers. Her tests might already be done, but no responsible breeder would throw away copies of test certificates. I have health test papers on a female that I placed four years ago.

Like I said, if you want some guidance, feel free to ask. Otherwise, go with your head, not your heart

Thank you Kelly and Juanita. My gut is totally saying to avoid this breeder. I keep looking at the picture of this beautiful little puppy and trying to rationalize away the mulitiple red flags. There are other red flags that I didn't even bring up. I guess I just needed a sounding board and some guidance from someone not directly involved. I greatly appreciate your honest and impartial confirmation of what I already inwardly knew.

Keep your eyes open ; you will know when you've found the perfect breeder for you.
(And the perfect puppy) There are many reputable breeders out there, you just have to really look!

What are you looking for (color, personality, show, pet, obedience, therapy, etc...). Maybe we can help you find what you are looking for (through PMs of course).

Also, if you obtain the actual registered name or number of the dog, you can verify OFA & CERF (if the forms were mailed in) by going to this site... http://www.offa.org/

Welcome back Rae! Missed seeing you, your posts, and your wonderful helpful knowledge.

Brenda-If you want to see what a reputable breeder's website should look like, please look at Rae's. She does not show just cute puppies on blankets, she shows the parents, pedigrees, testing results, etc, everything you should want to know about the background of the puppy. I have seen many reputable websites such as hers. Keep away from a breeder's website that just shows a cute puppy with a cute toy on a cute blanket with no info about the parents.

Not to mention how cute her dogs are! Well bred and cute-that is what you are looking for!

Thanks Sandy for the kind words! I'm glad to be back.

When I was looking for a breeder I was leery of any breeder who shows nothing but pics taken outside, in barns, or barn like buildings in the background, and straw. You do NOT put straw in a house. Straw is a dead give away. Background of the pics, says ALL IMO

That's GREAT advice Debbie! I also don't like websites that are full of show pics. I like to see dogs in their regular daily routine. Having Fun!

Thanks Juanita! Hope I can keep up better now that life slowed down alittle.

You ladies made me wonder about my own pictures. I think mine are well rounded. We have cute babies on blankets with toys, some in the yard, some in the house, and some show pics too. But no straw!

Very Good!

I actually had a breeder tell me how all her dogs were pets, lived in the house, and pups whelped in her bedroom. When checking her internet site, I saw straw and a very very dirty floor. It actually looked like a dirt floor (and it was). I wanted to ask her, if she lived in a barn.

Erika, I hope you know I am not talking about folks like you! I am referring to the puppy mill websites that ONLY show the cute puppies with nothing about their parents, where they were born, conditions of kennels, etc. You have a great website, showing how happy your dogs are. Unfortunately, we get so fixated on the cute puppy and not the background and conditions which continue the mill problem.

Just the fact alone that she didn't do the health testing should be a red flag. What good would it do for these puppies to do the testing on the sire after the puppies were born? If there is a health issue and the dog shouldn't be used well then its just a little too late don't you think? I will never understand people.
I hope you are able to find a better breeder.

This is one of the biggest red flags for me now. When I looked at Jack online I was very caught up in the cute puppy and didn't pay attention to the fact he was 4 months old, obviously never groomed, and sitting on a brown paper bag of food simply labeled "Dog Food." He also had a terrified look on his face. By the time I went to see him I was already in love and it was too late. Don't get me wrong...I wouldn't trade Jack for anything, but (like Juanita said) an unhealthy dog is heartbreaking. Not only has it cost me several thousand dollars to care for the health issues we've had in our pack, but it's terribly hard to watch them suffer. I've been fairly lucky in that none of the health issues have been fatal. I pray every day that I won't have to deal with that.

Not a lot to add that hasn't already been said. But, frankly, I would run away from this "breeder." So what if the sire's hips will be done "soon." If they aren't good, then what???? There is a litter on the way with a possible HD consequences.

Colleen Keough

Technically eight is only considered permanently clear by ASC. NOT by the ophthalmologists.

Promises of testing later don't cut it. There are many so called good breeders out there, that breed dogs before they are two. I've seen some that claim the testing has been done, but when in fact you go look some or all of the test results aren't there. I've seen one that even has a link to the OFA results right on the dogs page and yes, some are there, but not everything that is listed. You REALLY have to do your own homework. It may not be a health issue, but for me it's an honesty issue.

I got caught with my pants down once, on my champion Malone. FOUR SOLID generations of OFA good or excellent dogs, including two OFA excellent parents and he was moderately dysplastic in one hip. I had to inform all of the puppy buyers of this after they had been waiting. All still chose to take the puppies, but I felt like a dope. Never again. All permanent testing will be firmly in place before any of my dogs are bred.

Debbie - I completely agree. Being raised in a family environment is really up there in importance for me. I don't care if you do all the testing in the world and they have straight champions in their pedigree, if you aren't raising the pups in the HOME then thats just not even acceptable in my book! Pups need proper socialization; and its come apparent to me how some breeders are more worried about the shows and getting their next show dog, or making some quick cash, rather then focusing on properly raising their pups.

I must admit, I've made a couple stupid mistakes with purchasing Rudy, some things I was completely blinded by until now, but there is that quote that says the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Thats just how I see it. I'm not saying that to bash anyone, but there were some things I wasn't aware of until about 2 weeks ago, and now I wish I had explored them more. Rudy is awesome, beautiful, and so smart - I wouldn't trade him for the world.

All i'm saying it, everyone is completely correct by saying REALLY DO YOUR RESEARCH! I don't mean ask a couple silly questions, you have the full right to ask as many questions as you want - if the breeder gets frustrated or can't answer them all, then well, move on! The breeder should ask you plenty of questions too. If they don't care enough to ask you more then the basic questions - then thats a for-sure sign that they don't care where their puppies go. IMO!