The Zim Family Cocker Spaniel Forum

I'm really struggling with what is happening here.

Cooper (4 yrs) has really started to stalk Louie (10+ yrs), and sometimes I don't see what causes the incident.
If I see Cooper posturing and starting the stalking behavior, I can usually divert it. But sometimes poor Louie will be minding his own business and be blindsided by an attack from Cooper.
The worst part is that Bridgette (3 1/2 yrs) will join in on the attack on Louie and then Louie gets the worst of it, as Bridgette can be ruthless. She is the alpha bitch here, and can be very sweet but bosses everyone else around, and gets involved with everything.

Cooper used to idolize Louie, follow him everywhere, sleep with his head on Louie, and for us humans who get to live in this house, seeing this change in behavior is heart-breaking. I understand that a good part is because Louie is getting older, has had some health issues and is the weakest of the dogs, but it still is really bothersome.

I did order the remote citronella collar for Cooper, and am hoping and praying that this will really help the situation.
Does anyone have any hints as to what else I can do?

Thanks much, from me and Louie.

I know that when I had the elderly beagle Sugar, my two younger bitches would target her at times....just because she was weaker. If I had known then of the citronella collars I would have used them. Now the most aggressive dog Hailey has calmed a bit, and actually pulls her snaps and bites, when the littler weaker dog pushes her limits. I would imagine the Citronella Collars would work .... obedience in addition to that maybe would work more. Julie Hydro has had dog on dog aggression and has dealt effectively with that...and will probably chime in with some good resource info.

Marianne, your story sounds like mine. I have Jack Jack that has a real dislike on for Farley, and he likes to show it. It's a very frustrating situation, but I've managed it (for the most part). Let me start by saying that both of my boys are huge momma-sucks . . . so I think a lot of the issue is me. Access to me, attention from me, etc. I've only heard of Jack Jack getting snippy with another dog once when I wasn't around, and it was at somebody else's house. Also, Jack Jack has real issues with other dogs - he was attacked as a baby puppy, and he has carried that fear around since he was tiny. We've done a ton of work on it, and it has improved, but it's still there.

Here's what I do, for what it's worth . . .

1. Jack Jack no longer gets to sleep on the bed. He and Grace sleep in a crate together, and Farley is in the bed with me. I'm not sure why, but when Jack Jack is in the bed, the fights escalate (not fights in bed, but there is some correlation anyhow).

2. I manage the boys. I don't walk them together (because when I do bad things happen) and if I'm playing with one (fetch, etc) the other is in the house. Anything that causes arousal (company, playing, etc) means that the boys are separated.

3. I monitor meal times closely. The dogs NEVER eat when I'm not there (unless I'm away, and then whoever is feeding them is watching). I feed the dogs in order every day - Jack Jack, Farley and then Grace. This works for them.

4. I work on training EVERY day . . . a little something to remind Jack Jack that I am the controller of ALL good things, not him.

We are down to a fight once in a blue moon . . . . we went about 7 months between fights, and then I screwed up (at a dog show) and tried to walk both boys together back to the RV. My emotions were high as Grace had just finished her RAE (rally advanced excellent) title, and the boys picked up on it. Yep, we had a dog fight ringside, with 30 people trying to break it up (and me extremely embarrassed).

As far as I can tell, Farley doesn't do anything to start or instigate the fights. I'm pretty good at canine body language reading, and I haven't seen him do anything wrong (no eye contact, challenges, growls, etc). They *seem* to come out of thin air, although that's not likely the case.

I have had tons of advice from everybody . . . the main things are to MANAGE the environment and the boys, to try to prevent issues, and to reinforce calm, good behavior in Cooper when he shows it.

Good books are - Click to Calm by Emma Parsons and How To Right A Dog Gone Wrong (author's name eludes me right now). Dogwise has both.

Thanks for the advise, Michelle and Kelly.
This is a long post...

Kelly, I knew you had this issue with Farley & Jack Jack.
Here is some of what we have going on.
First off, Louie was neutered before he came to live with us at 5 years old. Cooper joined us here at 8 mos old, already neutered. Both boys will sometimes mark in the house - dang it, but not too often.

This fighting is horrible, as they really do start fighting.
Tonight I was outside in the yard with the dogs, and out of nowhere, Cooper jumped Louie. No growling or warning that I saw or heard. As I was trying to grab an ear of each dog, to try and break them up, Bridgette ran over and joined in, and she can be vicious, as I really think she dislikes Louie. (She & Cooper have minor disagreements, but work them thru with no problem or interference from us.)
During the fight, I was able to grab one of Cooper's ears and one of Bridgette's, and pulled them away from Louie, but then Louie turned on the two of them. I didn't have an extra free hand to grab one of Louie's ears and pull him away. My hubby, Jack, came outside with the water squirt bottle, and squirted water in their faces, which helped to stop the fight. But even as Jack dragged Louie off - Cooper lunged like "Let me at him".
If it wasn't so upsetting, it would be comical, as I am hanging on to the ears of 2 dogs, turning in circles to try and keep Louie from getting a hold of one of the other dogs.
Unfortunately, Louie always ends up with ear or face punctures, and bleeding. As he is the most mellow, is the senior boy, and the dog we had first, we feel awful for hours afterward. Louie also has lost a tiny bit of sight as he has aged and has had many teeth pulled, so he can't even fight back very much. Tonight he was shaking after the fight, I think the fights shake him up as much as they do us!

Cooper is the true cowardly one of the bunch, and I feel like he is taking advantage of Louie's age and health issues/decline as his chance to prove himself, does that make sense?

Another current contributing factor is that the girls are not spayed, and recently came out of season. I would like to breed Leila, so don't want to spay her. Bridgette is so darn bossy - but I'm not sure spaying her would help calm down her alpha tendencies. I have heard probably not.

Here is what we do around here to try and manage the dogs:
1. Cooper, Bridgette and Leila sleep on the bed, while Louie sleeps in his doggie bed. I can change that, and also get us more room on the bed.
2. The dogs' food is set down in the same order at each meal - Leila, Bridgette, Cooper and Louie. We always stand right there during feeding time, to allow each dog to finish eating completely and in peace - without having to watch for the other dogs.
3. Always when playing - Louie gets a toy and is happy to just run around the yard with his toy in his mouth. He doesn't compete for the thrown toy at all. We found if he did try to get the thrown toy/ball, it caused problems.
Cooper, Bridgette and Leila are the ones who run around and play.
4. Walking together has never been an issue, they are all happy to walk together. But I'm going to watch for issues with that now.
5. Also, with all the rainy weather, we haven't been exercising the dogs as we should. I will try to wear them out each day, so there is no energy left for dog fighting.

We have had some success with using a squirt water bottle to help deflect bad behavior. We have 3 - 4 of them stationed around the family room & kitchen. Cooper & Bridgette will immediately change their behavior if they see us pick up the squirt bottle, as long as we catch things before they escalate. Once the fight has begun in earnest, water squirts are ignored.
If I see Cooper watching Louie and his head/eyes following Louie around the room, I quickly squirt him, tell him "No, Leave It" and he stops.

Like Kelly said, the frustration comes from what I see as the 'out of the blue' attacks. Julie Hydro has had success with her 2 boys by using a remote citronella collar, so Cooper is going to be wearing one as soon. Again, it will mean catching the behavior before it escalates, but I am willing to try anything. Bridgette may also get a collar.

BTW - did you notice Leila never ever is involved in the fights? She is happy to remain on the side, minding her own business. She is the sweetest, happiest little girl, and has the best disposition I have ever seen. However, she is no pushover - the other dogs are not allowed to drink water if she is, they must wait until she is finished. LOL! Wish I had a magic wand to make Coop and Bridge more like her!

Thanks all!

I had 4 years of fights with George & Henry, and I mostly just managed it by not having them both out at the same time. Sometimes if Henry was asleep on my lap, I could have George out as well as he doesn't cuddle as much right on my lap. But as soon as Henry wanted to move, or if I had to get up, I would put one of them back in the utility room. I walked them separately, and of course fed them separately. If they'd been bigger breeds I would have had to rehome one of them, as it was so difficult and depressing. They seemed to mellow quite a bit when we moved house, perhaps the new start on neutral territory, and I was confident to walk them all together, and even to nip upstairs for something if they were all snoozing in the lounge. But I still never left them alone together. And then of course Henry died suddenly, so we didn't have the problem any longer. With the age gap you have, this might be the sad solution to the problem, with management in the meantime. I wouldn't let either Cooper or Bridgette on the bed if they are tending to start fights with your older boy, I would have them in separate rooms or crates to Louie at night. And like others have said, don't have them out together during excitement times like people arriving, feeding, walking etc. It isn't much fun to have fighting dogs, but it can be coped with long term if necessary.

We had this same problem when we got Abby. She would bit not only Lacey, but also us. When we got Teddy from the rescue, we thought adding a boy would help. It did not change. We ended up bringing in our trainer to help. We thought we might have had to give Teddy back to the rescue. Our trainer come up with our solution, the broom. We use the end of the broom to separate the dogs when they were fighting. It has worked so well we have used it once in the last six months. Abby is afraid of it. Lacey and Teddy respect it. Now they can even sleep on the couch and our bed. We know that if we need to we can separate them at any time. Please try this solution. It worked for us. It should work for you.

I don't have any advice that hasn't already been given. I just wanted to offer my sympathy. Dealing with dogs that are fighting can be so stressful.

Grace is like Leila, she really could care less. In fact, when the boys used to fight over food (when Jack Jack would walk away from his bowl and Farley would move in to finish it off) Grace loved the fights, cause she'd eat the food while I was dealing with the boys

I really feel your pain Marianne, as this has been going for more close to four years at my house. With management, I have the fights down to a rare occasion, but I find them upsetting too. And my mom gets absolutely distraught when she sees it happen. Typically Farley ends up with the piercings . . . multi-holed ears are the most common occurrence. Last time they fought (at the dog show), Farley got his digs in too, and Jack Jack had some piercings in his ear too.

I think a lot of it has to do with the aging dog . . . there's a weakness that the other dogs sense and grab onto. Funny that your Cooper and my Jack Jack are both admitted cowards . . . I wonder if their lack of self-esteem is contributing to issues too. You might want to do some one on one work with Cooper (just basic training or tricks or whatever) to help build his self-esteem a bit. I think that was part of what helped Jack Jack tone it down a bit.

If you ever need to talk or vent, I totally understand . . . . and I'm always ready to lend an ear.

Marianne,

I had the same issue with Mandi and Lexi, my girls fought like two strange dogs on the street ( I call it street fighting), and I have gotten bit trying to break up fights more times than I can recall. I have learned to pick up on some of the "symptoms" before a fight breaks out and I put Lexi in her crate, actually I call her to the crate and she really seems to want to go in for a time-out. It is kind of funny to watch Mandi and Sasha on the outside of the crate, poor little Sasha seems to want to break Lexi out and I think Mandi is teasing her

We do not ever pick up Lexi, for affection, or any other reason, we let her come to us that has also cut down alot of aggression issues. I relate it to a toddler, Lexi does not like to be made to do something, she has to want to do it on her own or be convinced "she" wants to do whatever it is I want from her.

Food is also routine, I like Kelly do not ever let the dogs be fed by someone other than myself because it is so regimented and precise. Any change in the routine sets Lexi off. I consulted with a dog trainer when Lexi and Mandi were about 8 months old and she emphatically told me I would have to re-home one of the bitches (I absolutely refused to do). Glad to know it is not just the girls who fight.

I can say Mandi and Lexi are now 3 1/2, Sasha is 2 1/2 and they are getting along quite well as long as I stay super tuned into Lexi's moods.

Good luck

Wow, I am surprised at the number of people who have the dog fighting problem! But certainly encouraged that everyone is able to manage and work around the trigger situations.
Thank you all for sharing your experiences and insight.
Things are calm around here tonight, and all the dogs are sleeping peacefully as it usually happens after a blow-up like we had the other evening.

We are starting a re-training of the dogs and the humans who live in this house, and work thru this!

Thought I would add another device to the list that might help. I got a vibrate/beep collar that is lighter weight than a nasty shock collar. The remote control works from up to 150 ft. away and the length of beep or vibration can be adjusted long or short. It interrupts an undesired behavior. I have found it works to keep my most dominant terrier from challenging passing deer through the fence or keeps her from picking on my elderly terrier too much. She has never fought with her but often grabs her by leg or throat to assert her belief that, " I may be the smallest, newest dog but I am in charge." No skin has ever been broken nor anyone hurt, but I was afraid it might escalate. The only downside with this collar is that sometime before I got my dynamo, someone used a shock collar on her I think so she originally tended to go to her crate as soon as this collar went on. She is getting over that. Note there is NO shock correction or prongs pointing toward the dogs neck. It just vibrates and/or emits an audible beep when you push the button on the little remote. It is rechargeable. I think it is a great innovation for distance correction or interruption of behaviors without the punitive hurting involved in other methods. I purchased it from Amazon and forget the brand. I did have to shorten (cut down) the collar some, but the weight was light enough for my 20 lb dynamo. It is not extremely well made but well worth the money if it saves your dog(s) from injury. Might be worth a try to interrupt the fighting behavior of the most aggressive of your pups. They recommend you work on one behavior you wish to change at a time. My little terrier is nearly to the point where if I hold the collar up she ceases her current activity and comes to me for well deserved pets.

I know what you are going through. I've been there! It is no fun and always just happened for no apparent reason and without warning. I still have the instigator and she's still one nasty girl. She loves Abby and Ava and wouldn't think of hurting or attacking them..go fig. Man oh man did she hate my Dudley (first cocker) and my mini doxie..both males. I still have to be careful she doesn't get outside of the fence. She'd attack any dog being walked. Heck she'd go after a horse. And please do not let her see a white dog! White dogs make her totally nutso.

As nasty as she can be she can be the sweetest, smartest little dog you can imagine. I sometimes think she understands the entire english language! She just chooses to be selective..LOL

A spray collar may well make things worse as it is an aversive. You want to teach them that being around each other is a good thing, not a bad thing.

My first step would be to check out both Louie and Cooper by a vet, a physical in depth check including bloods. First of all, many physical changes can cause aggression (which can be directed at just one target!). For Cooper I would also do a comprehensive thyroid test as hypothyroidism can also cause aggression issues like the ones you are describing.

Secondly, it appears that some dogs get attacked due to medical conditions... (perhaps change in smell... that sort of thing), so it's important to have Louie checked out properly too (with bloods).

Are there any health issues at all that you know of with either of them? (I think I saw something about Cooper limping?). Pain or just discomfort can also cause all sorts of major aggression issues.

Once and if both of these guys get the all clear from a vet, then go down the behaviour route though as mentioned above, I wouldn't use a spray collar as it could back fire on you and make the situation worse.

I wonder if your female coming into season sparked something here in your boy? It sounds like a good possibility to me. I know he is neutered, but

We have discussed the situation with our vet, and both Louie and Cooper have had recent annual check ups - like within the last few months (March & April). Louie had a full on blood panel & UA as part of a senior check-up, all his levels are good. He did have some urine crystals, but an ultrasound showed no bladder stones. Louie is acting as normal as possible for a 10+ year old dog.
Cooper was recently limping - but after 2 days he stopped, and he is fine now. I believe he probably had a minor sprain in a front leg, as he is running, jumping and playing now.

My gut feeling is that several things have caused some of the problems:

1. I agree with Kelly and others that a big part is Louie is aging and weaker than the others and the other dogs can sense this. Part of this is nature's way of survival of the fittest - altho this is really, really sad to say.
2. The girls recently came out of season, and yes, even tho both boys are neutered - they have not lost the heated desires to breed the girls. And Bridgette is a hussy, and throws herself at the boys, which doesn't help matters at all. We kept the females and males separated as much as possible during the heat period, as we knew that would be a testy time for everyone. I cannot imagine having an intact male around females in heat - it must be a crazy time!
3. Cooper is coming of age at 4 years old. One thing that really stands out for me is he has recently started to 'scratch and kick the dirt or grass' after peeing. Bridgette has always done this scratching for a long time, and she is the alpha bitch here.
I have been told that this scratching is a dominant action.
I don't remember ever seeing Louie or Leila do this scratching.
Any one else observed this 'scratching/kicking' in their more dominant pups?
4. Cooper is a HUGE coward. He is afraid or wary of everything! Noise, strange objects, changes of any kind, you name it and he spooks. Coop has gradually gotten better over the past few years, but still is a fraidy cat with an amazing memory!
For example; he associates using the oven broiler and the smell as it starts to heat up with the smoke alarm, as once I burned the garlic bread and the smoke alarm went off. Since that time, if I turn on the broiler - even before I put anything in to cook - he hides in the laundry room or under the coffee table, and won't come into the kitchen. This was the case last night.
5. Cooper has displayed some bossy tendencies around a few other dogs - namely my sister's dog, Kema, who is extremely timid. Cooper senses that he is braver than Kema, and bossed her from the moment he met Kema, and Kema allows him to do so.
Now that Louie is aging, I believe Cooper senses that Louie is weaker and not so tough, and he acts on that.

We are going to work thru this and will be trying many of the suggestions so many of you have given. Thank you so much for all your help - Louie says thanks as well !

Three of my four dogs do this regularly. None of them are what I would describe dominant type dogs. The only one that doesn't is my English cocker girl!

Has Cooper's thyroid been checked?

My nasty/alpha girl does the scratching after she potties. I never thought about that being a dominant trait, but I bet it is. She will also spray/pee (spraying pattern believe it or not) when another dog has peed!

Your Cooper is the male version of my Ava...chicken and scared of everything with a tremendous memory of all the scary things, BUT she will stand up to Ginger my alpha. Her and Ginger have had stand offs, none in the past several months though. They will circle each other. Next thing you know one is humping the other...first Ginger on Ava then Ava on Ginger...my alpha girl just walks off and everything is fine again The first time I saw these actions it scared me to death. I thought for sure Ava was going to lose her face, but there was nothing more than circling, humping, and then nothing. Abby would even throw herself between them on her back as if to say, "here boss me and lets play". Then all 3 start acting crazy with biting face, etc.

All 3 of my dogs will mark in the yard and scratch and kick, guy Ollie and gals alike. I was actually surprised when I brought home Britney from someone who didn't want her at all, that my Diva, the elder Irish Terrier admitted her to the household. She did make it clear on day one that she would not meekly let the newbie Britney merely run over her. She put her on her back and pinned her there 3 times after Britney went too far in her bossiness, but with no injuries things sorted out. Britney is now definitely the most Alpha but Diva is a long way from giving up her title as a card carrying Irish Terrier that " don't take nuffin from nobody". Diva and Britney often rough house and play steeplechase, though Diva is well over 10. Ollie, my cocker guy doesn't understand the terrier thing but will stand up for himself. All and all everybody gets along though Britney was never "schooled" when young about humans being in command so now I have to make this clear occasionally. No I'm not swatting her and the beep/ vibration collar is used only to interrupt things if they seem to be getting out of hand. Generally it means I decide when she can get on a lap, she must sit prior to eating and is expected to "leave it" whatever it is on command. We do just fine but this gal needs rules (like most terriers). Ollie, on the other hand is a sensitive velcro cocker with a temperment about as opposite as it can get. Still things are going swell with all 3 dogs over 3 years into this 3 dog thing.

Wow, I thought I was one of few who had problems with bitchy girls! Joslyn has been here longest, and has been alpha female. Julie, who is younger gets this stiff tail and the hair on her back stands up and she gets aggressive toward Joslyn if they are all together when I come home sometimes. Unpredictable. With Joslyn on crate restriction there has been no fighting but I worry about Julie hurting her. Once I got biten hard on the hand trying to break them up. It is always Julie who is the aggressor, poor Dillion justs barks, I think it upsets him. One night Joslyn had a seizure and Julie started to attack her!! I have picked her up and given her a long time out in her crate. I agree it is very upsetting.

Scratching dirt, grass, gravel, I been told is spreading their scent which is on the bottom of their pads. I'm here, I'm here, my dog is not very territorial he is a lover.

Hi Marianne -

I think you hit the nail on the head with #5:

5. Cooper has displayed some bossy tendencies around a few other dogs - namely my sister's dog, Kema, who is extremely timid. Cooper senses that he is braver than Kema, and bossed her from the moment he met Kema, and Kema allows him to do so. Now that Louie is aging, I believe Cooper senses that Louie is weaker and not so tough, and he acts on that.

My first thought was to get Louie in for a complete blood panel, and I do still kinda lean that way - even tho he was in 2 months ago, I'd get another reading and compare it to one from a year ago for any noticable changes - just in case.

Hugs to you and yours!!

Just thought I would say something about the scratching/digging the ground thing. Indy, my completely submissive, do whatever you want, boy, has recently started doing that. I thought it was interesting that only the dominant dogs were doing this. Just my two cents, unfortunately I have nothing to add to the fighting matter. (Or rather, fortunate that I have never had to deal with this.) Good luck all!

I already sent my thoughts in a PM but I wanted to chime in on Vera's opinion on the citronella collar.

While I defer to her most of the time on all things training, I really think until you have lived with a situation like this you just can't know how stressful and horrible it is.

It would be great if the dogs could think it's a good thing to be together and 'all get along' but it doesn't always work that way. So what if they are never buddies and sleep together, at least they won't be killing each other. I don't use that word figuratively either. My last dog with this behavior did kill one of my other dogs. Not outright, but he beat him up so badly he went septic and had to be put down. We still gave him another chance, and although he only picked on one dog at a time, not a few months after that dog died, he started on another until I finally had to make the heart wrenching decision to put him down as well.

For me and my current situation,Sokka stalking Pirate, the remote collar has been a Godsend. We had tried everything else. Sokka is trained to within an inch of his life, classes every single week sometimes two for a year. My main trainer was the one who suggested it after we had tried everything else that was suggested. As I said in the PM all he needs now is that warning beep and he'll just hop in his crate and leave Pirate alone. It has made our situation SO much more livable. Aversion is just fine with me.

I had to do the collar for my alpha as well, not because of my cocker girls but for other dogs. One beep is all she needs to STOP. She doesn't want what comes next. a trainer/behaviorist recommended it. She does not leave the house without it, just in case