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 Post subject: UPDATE 7/31, PG.1 ~ High White Blood Cell Count & Surgery?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:47 am 
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:hi

I am starting a new thread about this subject because I am looking for a specific answer to this question:

Do you have experience with a dog having a high white blood cell count and the prospect of surgery? :dk I am wondering just how a high white blood cell count will relate to sedation and surgery. Especially, any side affects that should result in surgery being postponed or cancelled long term. Don't want to take any chances. :roll

Thanks so much for your valuable assistance...

Dawn :paw

Chloie's White Blood Cell Counts:


WBC: 38,6000, normal is 16,300
Neutrophil's: 33,968, normal is 11,500

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Last edited by dawn & kevin on Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Question~High White Blood Cell Count & Effecting Surgery
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:28 pm 
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It seems the older our cockers get the more tiny "things" pop up. With my dogs, I usually watch the area or wait until there are more than one before putting them under. My vet always keeps an eye on them and of course if they grow they are seen and receive treatment. Tucker has a couple and we decided not to put him under until this summer due to his being not healthy after pancreatitis. He has just in the last month or so become his old self jumping up on me and being a merry boy.

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 Post subject: Re: Question~High White Blood Cell Count & Effecting Surgery
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:28 pm 
Deborah Chloie is a young dog.

Dawn the high white cells won't have any effect on the anesthesia or recovery. However, do they have any idea why it's so high in the first place? It indicates a very intense infection going on. That's is incredibly high, and I don't think it has anything to do with that mass unless it's an abscess forming, which it doesn't look like at all. What was the rest of her CBC results do you know?


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 Post subject: Re: Question~High White Blood Cell Count & Effecting Surgery
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:04 pm 
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Julie Hydro wrote:
Deborah Chloie is a young dog.

Dawn the high white cells won't have any effect on the anesthesia or recovery. However, do they have any idea why it's so high in the first place? It indicates a very intense infection going on. That's is incredibly high, and I don't think it has anything to do with that mass unless it's an abscess forming, which it doesn't look like at all. What was the rest of her CBC results do you know?


Thanks for your reply Julie,

I believe that the Doctor stated that her counts were good, except for the WBC. Yes, there is what the Vet thinks in an underlying problem that is making her WBC high. But, before I mention that, I want to tell you that we have had a high WBC count in the past as well. And, her temperature is almost always around 103 degrees. We are thinking that it is the excitement at being at the clinic. At home, her temp is not that high. The last time, as I remember her WBC was high, the other Vet put her on antibiotics.

So, now for the underlying problem. It is her ears (right ear in particular). The Vet did a slide on each ear and discovered a lot of rods (don't know if they are positive or negative) in her right ear. Then she found yeast in her left ear. We are treating with Mometamax, twice a day in her right ear. Also, treating the left ear with TriTop ointment, twice a day. I know that the Mometamax is a once a day dose as written on the bottle. But, I specifically asked her about this and she still wanted twice a day. This new Vet has her on Prednisone, 10mg a day for three days, 5mg a day for three days and then 2.5mg for three days skipping one day in between. She states that the Prednisone will help reduce the swelling in her ears. But, I think that it might be reducing the size of this mass. It appears to be a little bit smaller today. :dk

We are scheduled to have her ears re-checked this Friday as well as the CBC. UGH!

You know, my not being able to smell really hinders me when it comes to her ears. I asked Kevin how they smell last weekend and he stated that they were fine. :dk But, the Vet did smell test by inserting a Q-tip into each ear. She stated that there was a smell. Guess I will have to give Kevin the Q-tip test instead of his just smelling her ears. :roll

On a side note. I do not remember any Vet ever making a slide of each ear and marking it left and right. If this slide test is successful in treating her ear problems that would be wonderful. In the past it was mostly a guessing game as to what we were treating and which medication to use. :bang My bad, I guess. I did not realize this until NOW! :evil

Thanks for your answer about the high WBC counts. That will relieve some of my concerns about the surgery. I would take her to our Veterinary Hospital for this to be done by our Internist or his Surgeon. However, Chloie also needs her teeth cleaned and I doubt that the Hospital will bother with that. I am going to call and ask tomorrow when the Internist is in his office.

Dawn :paw

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Chloie Pearl~Babybutt~Tri~2/16/08
Muraco Misun~Red/Wht~4/13/11
Moonbeam~Ms.Moonlight~Buff~7/24/00~8/14/11
Persalina~Big Bright Eyes~Buff~10/92~5/12/08
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 Post subject: Re: Question~High White Blood Cell Count & Effecting Surgery
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:08 pm 
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Hi Dawn! :wv

First of all, let me say I'm so sorry to hear that Miss Chloie Pearl is under the weather! Please give her extra lovin' from me! :love

Second, I have to tell you that I'm not so much buying that her ears are the culprits in the very high WBC. When I read your post, my immediate gut reaction was- "Uh, No! That 's not it." :dk

I think my reaction is based my experiences with the fosters, taking cockers to the vet who had "roaring" ear infections, and their WBC's were "just slightly off normal" not crazy high like Chloie's is now.

So, in a nutshell, I'm glad you're treating her ears, but I suspect there is something more going on.

My suggestion would be to have her tested for tick borne diseases again. I know you have lots of 4-footed critters that use your yard for access to and from the open space. I've heard several times this summer that erlichiosis is rising rapidly here in the Bay area, and lyme has been a concern for several years now.

I know you and Kevin will keep following the trail until you get it solved. Best of luck, and please keep asking questions and sharing with us! :th-up

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Maggie Mae, home September 1, 2014

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 Post subject: Re: Question~High White Blood Cell Count & Effecting Surgery
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:26 pm 
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Dawn I am sorry Chloe is on the sick side. I saw the picture of the growth on Chloe's back. Let me tell you my holly has about 2 of those. One on her chest that is been there for the last 3 years and one on her right hind leg more or less 4 months. The get also removed some lipomas from her chest that came back. I have left those growth alone just kept an eye. Holly has a tendency to grow warts all over including on her paws. I also left them alone and they go away. I am not sure since when this growth been around. I will just keep an eye, you even said since the antibiotics the growth is getting smaller. The white blood cells count is high that means infection. Unless the growth has an abscess or necrotic tissue then I will removed it but high white count and surgery in top of it will be a means for more infection as there will be an open area. Dogs tend to heal fast but ask the vet if is necessary to remove the growth no or wait. Another thing you mentioned she needs a teeth cleaning. Check her mouth well look for abscess or teeth that are loose. The mouth is the first window to the world and one of the first route for infection. Please keep us posted. Keep an eye on the growth.

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Mom to dear Holly AKA Holly Caramel Candy 10/99-02/13 who went to meet Monchi, Sasha 1 and 2, in the Rainbow Bridge.


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 Post subject: Re: Question~High White Blood Cell Count & Effecting Surgery
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:48 pm 
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I'm sorry you're going through this! However, I know that whatever is going on with Chloie, you will be diligent in finding out what is going on and getting her the best care possible. Hugs to all of you!

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 Post subject: Re: Question~High White Blood Cell Count & Effecting Surgery
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:53 pm 
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Hi Ladies,

First, thank you so much for your posts, concerns, ideas and possible causes for Chloie's high white cell count. Been researching ever since I have read these posts.

Chris, I do see that tick born disease can cause high WBC. From what I can see, as of now, she does not present any of the other symptoms. Since I will be discussing this with all Vets that I have had associations within the past. I will surely be asking about this possibility. My real concern is about their understanding of this situation. So, I will also be contacting our Internist at the Veterinary Hospital.

I do know that the Vet that treated Chloie last Friday will not be in the clinic till this coming Friday. So, I am not sure if there will be a way for me to discuss this with her. She did not seem to be very concerned and, as I stated before, she did mention Chloie's ear infections. But, I did not hit the alarm button. Even though I did realize that the values that she gave me were twice as high as normal. I was more concerned, at that time, about Chloie's surgery and how the WBC would reflect on that possibility. I wanted to just get this growth off of her neck.

Here is an article that I found regarding canine high white blood counts and the possibility of disease:


"Identification
•White blood cells are often referred to as leukocytes. Their normal value in a dog, according to Peteducation.com, range between 6,000 and 17,000 per microliter of the dog's blood.
Types
•There are several sub-types of white blood cells in a dog such as neutrophils, eosinophils, basophils, lymphocytes and monocytes. The blood test used to determine their numbers is called "differential white blood cell count."
Benefits
•A differential white blood cell count analysis will help the veterinarian determine exactly which white cells are elevated.
Causes
•The most common cause of elevated white blood cell count in dogs is infection. However, there may be other causes such as stress, allergies, auto-immune disorders, viral disease, parasitism, and some forms of cancer, such as lymphosarcoma or leukemia.
Considerations
In some cases, sending blood work to a pathologist may provide more information in difficult cases where an exact diagnosis cannot be determined based solely on physical findings and in-house lab work.

•Sponsored Links
oChronic Leukemiaa
Search Risks, Symptoms & Treatments Get Facts From The Doctors Today
mycmlbook.com

Read more: What Are the Causes of High WBC in Dogs? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/facts_5766509_cause ... z223yAEvdC"

Frankly, the term "Auto-Immune Disorders" makes my knees nock! :OMY :roll

Obviously, I will be delving into this much more deeply tomorrow. As for Chloie, today was just another day. Excepting she is getting more easy cheese because of the added pills. She is not showing any of the symptoms that have been discussed during my readings today. Of course, I have checked her gums and they are nice and "pink". :hp I did make an attempt to measure this mass so I will have a baseline for tomorrow. I am still thinking that it looks to be a "little" smaller or less swollen. :dk

Thanks again for alerting me to the possible problems that I had not considered as of yet. Now I am on alert! :th-up :nw

Dawn :paw

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JOINED ZIM FORUM 5/15/08~4:15pm
Chloie Pearl~Babybutt~Tri~2/16/08
Muraco Misun~Red/Wht~4/13/11
Moonbeam~Ms.Moonlight~Buff~7/24/00~8/14/11
Persalina~Big Bright Eyes~Buff~10/92~5/12/08
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 Post subject: Re: Question~High White Blood Cell Count & Effecting Surgery
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:20 pm 
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Hi Dawn, I'm sorry to hear about Chloie. It's always upsetting when we can't figure out what's going on with our babies.

I can tell you this, my Darby has had an extremely high WBC and neutrophil count for the past 4 years. Her wbc was 41,000 last month and hasn't been below 24,000 in the 4 yr. period. She has had surgery for an ACL repair during this period and she healed very quickly with no problems. So I don't think it should have a bearing on Chloie's surgery.

My common sense tells me that there should be a reason for the elevation but she has been tested for everything and no cause can be found. She has been on antibiotics several times and her WBC's remain elevated. Darby had blood sent to Dr. Dodds lab for testing and her WBC's were 37,000 at that time. Our vet discussed the high WBC's with Dr. Dodds and ,after hearing everything that was R/O as a cause, she said she would just watch her and wait for a cause to present itself. Darby does have Cushings, but the two issues aren't related. She had the abnormal WBC's 2 yrs. before the DX of Cushings. I'm constantly researching and trying to find an explanation. Darby is being checked every 2mo. and ,of course, more frequently if she just seems a little off. I trust our Vet and I certainly trust Dr. Dodd's opinion but it still makes me a little crazy not knowing what's causing the elevation.


Good luck with Chloie's surgery... I'll pray for a good outcome and speedy recovery! :hp

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Darby, Red & White Parti, age 8.5

Bailey, Black & White Parti, age 11.5 so sadly missed! 7-7-2000 to 1-24-2012


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 Post subject: Re: Question~High White Blood Cell Count & Effecting Surgery
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:12 pm 
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Connie F. wrote:
Hi Dawn, I'm sorry to hear about Chloie. It's always upsetting when we can't figure out what's going on with our babies.

I can tell you this, my Darby has had an extremely high WBC and neutrophil count for the past 4 years. Her wbc was 41,000 last month and hasn't been below 24,000 in the 4 yr. period. She has had surgery for an ACL repair during this period and she healed very quickly with no problems. So I don't think it should have a bearing on Chloie's surgery.

My common sense tells me that there should be a reason for the elevation but she has been tested for everything and no cause can be found. She has been on antibiotics several times and her WBC's remain elevated. Darby had blood sent to Dr. Dodds lab for testing and her WBC's were 37,000 at that time. Our vet discussed the high WBC's with Dr. Dodds and ,after hearing everything that was R/O as a cause, she said she would just watch her and wait for a cause to present itself. Darby does have Cushings, but the two issues aren't related. She had the abnormal WBC's 2 yrs. before the DX of Cushings. I'm constantly researching and trying to find an explanation. Darby is being checked every 2mo. and ,of course, more frequently if she just seems a little off. I trust our Vet and I certainly trust Dr. Dodd's opinion but it still makes me a little crazy not knowing what's causing the elevation.


Good luck with Chloie's surgery... I'll pray for a good outcome and speedy recovery! :hp


Hi Connie,

Thanks for your post and I sure hope that you can eventually find out why Darby's WBC is so high. I know that it must be hard knowing this and not being able to find the reason. Hopeully, we can get to the bottom of Chloie's very high WBC. As I stated before, we are going to re-check her blood counts this Friday. I am hopeful that there will be some improvement. :roll

I spoke to the Internist that treated Moonbeam for her IMHA and cancer. He is a very, very thorough Doctor and he will leave no stone upturned to get to the bottom of any problem. Also, his hospital has the newest equipment for test and results. If need be, I will take Chloie to him. But, he can't do this procedure because they do not clean teeth at his facility. :sad

I did ask if Chloie's ear infections could be causing the high WBC and he did not discount that. He then suggested that we re-test her blood before surgery. I stated that we have already planned on doing this Friday. I am going to have my regular Vet send Chloie's current chart, regarding this matter, to him for his review. I have resolved myself to do everything to try and find the cause of this. But, I am thankful for your statement that your Darby had surgery with a high WBC with out difficulty. The Internist did state that, if we do proceed with the surgery, Chloie's WBC would probably rise. This is because her body will do this to further protect her from infection due to the surgery. I will be contacting him again before we proceed.

Another concern is the teeth cleaning. I know that this procedure could also cause infection. So, I am going to have to chat with our regular Vet about this fact as well. UGH! I am awaiting a call from him this evening. Will see what he has to say about our visit with his new Doctor last Friday. Will have a lot of questions for him, so I think that I will now make a list.

As of now, this growth has not shown any sign of enlarging over the last four days. I was thinking that it might be getting smaller, but I guess not.

Thanks again to all for your comments, concerns and advice. I will not proceed without doing all that I can to make sure that we have a successful procedure. :love

Dawn :paw

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JOINED ZIM FORUM 5/15/08~4:15pm
Chloie Pearl~Babybutt~Tri~2/16/08
Muraco Misun~Red/Wht~4/13/11
Moonbeam~Ms.Moonlight~Buff~7/24/00~8/14/11
Persalina~Big Bright Eyes~Buff~10/92~5/12/08
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 Post subject: Re: Question~High White Blood Cell Count & Effecting Surgery
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:17 pm 
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UPDATE 7/31 PM:

Well, I had a long talk with our regular Vet, Doctor M, today. I read my list and we have a plan or an answer for all the questions I had at that time. Anyone who knows me, realizes that I am never out of questions, though. :wk

There is a bit of a change in plans. I am not canceling Chloie's surgery, but we are going to take her to Dr. M, Saturday instead of seeing the new Vet on Friday. We are doing this for further examination of Chloie and review of the situation at hand. Today Dr. M, asked if I wanted to put Chloie through surgery to remove this mass which I think is a Cutaneous Histiocytoma. He has not seen this mass, so I would rather he look at it and give me his advice. From what I have read, this type of mass is benign and will dissipate on it's own. He stated that, if this is a Histiocytoma, he usually suggests watching it very closely and looking for any further growth. It has not grown since we were at the Vet clinic last Friday. In fact, it is not as red looking either.

Even though Dr. M, has not seen the growth, he very much described it accurately. Please be assured that I have not discounted the fact that it could be malignant. So, this decision will be made very thoughtfully and carefully. Thus I am going to ask for another needle aspiration and have it sent to a pathologist.

We will also be re-checking Chloie's WBC and hopefully, with the ear treatment and medications, that count will have improved a little. Dr. M, did state that all the cells, including the high Neutrophils, were mature cells which lead me to believe that this is good news. Will have to go and research this too. :goof I have asked three Vet's, as of now, and they all think that the ear infections could cause the WBC to rise. We will see...

Another reason to re-think the surgery rout is that Dr. M, has an associate that can clean Chloie's teeth without surgery. That would be a blessing for us and for Chloie. I am so very scared of surgery.... UGH!

Thanks to you all for your valuable input and your patience with me being a "worry wart" Mommy.

Dawn :paw

I will keep you posted about Saturday's visit.

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JOINED ZIM FORUM 5/15/08~4:15pm
Chloie Pearl~Babybutt~Tri~2/16/08
Muraco Misun~Red/Wht~4/13/11
Moonbeam~Ms.Moonlight~Buff~7/24/00~8/14/11
Persalina~Big Bright Eyes~Buff~10/92~5/12/08
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JUSTICE FOR OREO: http://www.justice4oreo.net/


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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE 7/31, PG.1 ~ High White Blood Cell Count & Surger
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:35 am 
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Great news! :th-up


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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE 7/31, PG.1 ~ High White Blood Cell Count & Surger
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:48 pm 
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From one "Worrywart mommy" to another: Better that than some of the neglect-careless-ignorant cases I have seen working with rescue. Frankly, anything with blood cells makes me want to grab the dog and check its gums. It's now the first thing I do when a dog seems off. I had a wrestling match with my poor foster Peggy when she didn't get out of the crate Sunday morning and was listless. I dragged her out and pried open her mouth to look at her gums when it dawned on me that if she had IMHA she wouldn't be fighting me so hard! :roll Turns out she has Bordatella--and is now on antibiotics.

Hope all turns out well for Chloie!

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Fur-ever home to SDSR's "Princess of Quite A Lot":Mia, waiting at the Bridge


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 Post subject: Re: UPDATE 7/31, PG.1 ~ High White Blood Cell Count & Surger
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:26 am 
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Sending good thoughts for Chloe.

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