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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: Next Steps
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:40 pm 
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Gale,

Thank you for sharing such an in-depth analysis of the various motives and philosophies at play in your decision to breed. I know next to nothing on this subject matter, but I find it riveting.

Out of pure curiosity, is there any reason for/against breeding via artificial insemination? As I mentioned, I have very limited knowledge to work with, but I know some breeders opt to go this route. Such an idea was never even on my radar, until I signed a FedEx bill of lading on behalf of a veterinarian's office in a former workplace (long story!), and it clearly stated that the contents of the package were "equine seminal fluid."

I just wondered whether you have any personal reasons for choosing to send her RT to Canada, instead of artificially inseminating. Like yourself, I am not fond of the idea of putting a dog in cargo—for that reason, I have flown internationally and domestically with my 30 pound Oliver in the cabin. That's a whole 'nother story! :happy It seems like it would be less stress and cheaper to go the artificial route, but maybe I'm missing something!

Thanks in advance for any enlightenment you can provide on this subject—so fascinating!

Adam


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: Next Steps
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:29 pm 
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Adam,

Yes, AI was a possibility. However, having a background in horse-breeding, I have a preference for "live covers" whenever possible. I believe that the quality and vigor of offspring that you get is superior. I could go into detail about why, but it's boring and complicated, and I figure that the "epic" that I just posted is probably boring enough. As far as cost goes, it's a wash. The costs associated with doing AI are about the same as the airfare to Canada.

I'm trying to do everything I can to insure the quality of this litter. If I truly believed anything would happen to Tango, I would not send her. When I bred persians, I shipped a number of times without problem. Tango is being shipped to Vancouver, a 2 1/2 hour non-stop flight, and Marnie is driving over from Edmonton (a 2 day drive) to pick her up in order to give her the safest, least stressful experience we can. I would feel nervous even if someone else were driving her instead of flying her!

Gale


Last edited by Gale on Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: Next Steps
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:44 pm 
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Thanks for humoring my curiosity Gale! :bg My concern is not so much about the cargo hold, but more so how my dog would react :wnk Half the time he complains when I put him in his crate at home, so I can't imagine how he'd take to flying down there...then again, maybe he'd do just fine!

Thanks again for your answer! :wv

P.S.-You bred Persians? I missed that in your post earlier—how cool! I want my next pet to be a Persian—my Cocker Spaniel might have something to say about that though! :lol2


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: Next Steps
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:41 pm 
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A breeding of Tango to Lars should produce some beautiful dogs with good bone, top notch movement and temperaments to die for. Having met Lars a number of times (and having co-owned his dam at one point!) I can tell you that he has a phenomenal temperament. He's a gorgeous dog and he produces very consistently. He's an older dog (almost 10) and as healthy as he was in his younger days. A linebreeding on Glenmurray dogs is awesome - Lois had some of the best dogs in the ring for a long, long time, and Glenmurray lines are getting harder and harder to find. These puppies have so much potential (already!) that it gives me the chills!

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: Next Steps
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:42 pm 
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And for what it's worth, I agree about live cover breedings being the best. You just can't beat them . . . AI and frozen semen can be useful in situations where it's dangerous to ship the female or where the male can't breed anymore, but a live breeding is always the ideal situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: Thedeed is Done!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:09 pm 
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Saturday (Aug 24), I put Tango on an Air Canada flight to Vancouver. I was on pins and needles until I got the phone call from Marnie that she had arrived safely. After they picked Tango up, Marnie and Jan headed for Kamloops where they were spending the night before driving home to Edmonton the next day. I got an email written at 12:48 am saying that they had arrived at the hotel in Kamloops and that Tango and Max (the dog they had been showing at Enumclaw) were having a grand time playing in the hotel room. Evidently, Tango really likes Max-- hope she doesn't get any ideas! Anyhow, I guess she wasn't too traumatized by the flight (it probably traumatized me more). I didn't think that she would be-- while she hasn't flown before, she has traveled extensively with me and with Shirley and Tracy when she was being shown. She's always been very happy traveling.

Now if every one would put good thoughts out there in the universe that she comes into heat on schedule! She's been very consistent at every six months for the last three times,so hopefully she will this time too. Let's all root for puppies mid-November!

Thanks!
Gale


Last edited by Gale on Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: In Canada!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:56 am 
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Very interesting, Gale. Thank you for sharing!

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Jackie

Rocky (7/18/02), Onyx (10/2/10), Misty (8/15/11), and Ethan (10/20/11)
Weesister (7/18/02-7/22/10) and Killington (10/85-2/02)waiting at the bridge


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: In Canada!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:07 am 
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Gale,
I want to thank you for sharing all this information with us. I find it very interesting and love to read your updates.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for positive results for Lars and Tango! :th-up

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: In Canada!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:57 pm 
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How exciting! So happy she made it safe and sound... sending +++++ thoughts for a successful breeding!

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Chesapeake NF, AX, AXJ (CGC)
4/20/10

The road to MACH is full of jumps and weaves....

Competing in Master Agility
Double Q's - 1
MACH Points -71
MX Q's - 2
MJX Q's - 2
(edited 12/16)


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: In Canada!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:25 am 
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Gale,
Love this topic about what is involved when breeding a litter of puppies. It really does involve much more time and costs than the average dog owner is aware.
Just for kicks, I compared my costs for breeding my Leila to your costs for Tango.
My costs were similar in many regards, for her purchase and as Leila finished her championship with a handler as well. I did not have airline costs for shipping to the stud, however, as we drove Leila to Nevada, and then made another round trip to pick her up 10 days later.
Ultrasound charges at 30 days to confirm she was pregnant, and then an x-ray at about 58 days to determine number of pups (2 pups) added to the vet costs.
I had additional costs for whelping the pups, as Leila and I traveled from Oregon to a breeder friend's home in Washington to whelp the puppies. I was nervous about Leila being a first time mom, and this being 'my' first litter as well, I wanted her to be in more experienced hands. Two precious babies where born, and all was well. However, at 10 days old, we lost one of the pups.
Anyway, Echo stayed with us, of course. We are fortunate that she is very healthy and is a show quality pup, which was my goal & hope in breeding Leila. I would believe my total costs to have Echo join our family amount to pretty close to your total. Let's just say she is one very expensive puppy!!

Now, I love this puppy to pieces and I think Echo is worth her weight in gold, of course. :love

I am wishing you lots of luck with Tango and her anticipated litter and will be watching for more updates!

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Louie 02/15/2002
Cooper 12/07/07
Leila 03/21/08
Bridgette 01/12/09
Echo 08/10/12

Waiting at the Bridge: Little Sister, Savana, Tivy, Slider, Arrow and all the others, I will always love you.


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: Tango is home!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:12 pm 
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Marianne: I'm not surprised that your costs were similar to mine. Unless you use your own stud, I think that our costs will be similar to other very small breeders. Larger reputable breeders costs might be slightly less. However, backyard breeders can make quite a bit of money unfortunately.

Update: Tango came in heat right on schedule. Progesterone levels showed she had ovulated last Wednesday, but she was unwilling to accept Lars. Friday, she had her first cover and has been bred each day since then. She will stay at Marnie's for a few weeks to allow for good implantation and then fly home. Hopefully, puppies at Thanksgiving time!


Last edited by Gale on Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: The deed is done
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:42 pm 
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:YAY

The count down begins!!!!

:Fever

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Chesapeake NF, AX, AXJ (CGC)
4/20/10

The road to MACH is full of jumps and weaves....

Competing in Master Agility
Double Q's - 1
MACH Points -71
MX Q's - 2
MJX Q's - 2
(edited 12/16)


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: The deed is done
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:47 am 
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Ooh how exciting!!! :Fever :Fever :Fever :Fever

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: Tango is home!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:23 pm 
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I picked Tango up at LAX at 10:30 pm last night. Poor girl! Her flight was was uneventful from Edmonton to Vancouver, but her layover in Vancouver was delayed for an additional 2 hours. All in all, she was locked in a crate for about 15 hours. She had pooped and peed in the crate, but because I had sent her on a grate, she was clean and dry-- just her crate was stinky which was easily remedied.

I have really missed her! Six weeks is a long time... The joy in her eyes when she realized I was there to get her was just priceless. She started crying and scratching at the crate door. When I opened the door, she jumped straight into my arms and just cuddled and sighed. When she realized that my mom was there too, she ran over and jumped up and started giving her kisses too.

When we got home , she couldn't wait to get out of the car. Once in the house, she ran around and gave all of the cats kisses. When I let her out with the boys, they all kissed and played. I was happily surprised at that because I know she has the smell of Lars and Marnie's other dogs on her and I had feared there might be some issues, but everyone was just happy to see each other.

Today, she has mostly laid around sleeping-- she's well, eating, pooping, and playing every once in a while--just tuckered out from her trip.

Her due date is Nov, 24th (give or take a day or two). I'll have an ultrasound done in 2 weeks to confirm the pregnancy and hopefully get an estimate on the number of puppies. I'm thinking positive... she is pregnant, she is pregnant, she is pregnant...


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: Tango is home!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:30 pm 
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Will be watching for your next update!

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Louie 02/15/2002
Cooper 12/07/07
Leila 03/21/08
Bridgette 01/12/09
Echo 08/10/12

Waiting at the Bridge: Little Sister, Savana, Tivy, Slider, Arrow and all the others, I will always love you.


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: Tango is home!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:14 pm 
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Yay! :YAY


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: Tango is home!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:24 pm 
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:Clap Thanks for the update :th-up

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Rocky (7/18/02), Onyx (10/2/10), Misty (8/15/11), and Ethan (10/20/11)
Weesister (7/18/02-7/22/10) and Killington (10/85-2/02)waiting at the bridge


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: Bad News
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:57 am 
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So, Tango had her ultrasound last night and she's not pregnant! Her uterus looks good, no fluid, or abnormalities, just not pregnant... What a disappointment! ( Okay, I admit it-- I cried all of the way home from the vet.) I still can't quite believe it-- everything pretty much went like clockwork, seemed like a pretty sure thing. From my previous experiences with breeding, I know these negative things happen, but to be blunt, right now it really sucks!

It wouldn't have bothered me nearly as much if I had not sent her all the way to Canada. I don't think I can afford to send her again--$800-- in all, which doesn't include the stud fee, just costs for shipping, health certificates, and tests-- just to maybe have the same thing happen again. Yet, I know this would be an outstanding breeding. Decisions, decisions... Right now, I'm leaning towards breeding her more locally and proving her, then later breeding her to Lars (providing he's still alive and able, since he is 10 years old). The problem is that I would have bred her locally in the first place if I had felt there was the correct stud here. There's a young black Grand Champion being shown locally that is a possibility and it would be a line breeding, but he won't be 2 until next May, so who knows if he'll pass his health checks. Also there are rumors about his grandsire and cataracts, so I'll really need to check that out. Again, decisions, decisions ... Just some of the trials and tribulations of breeding.

One good possible outcome is that I may be able to finish Tango's grand championship. She's about halfway there. I had to pull her from the show circuit because she had her first season and totally blew her coat and in the last year and a half, it has not come back in. However, it is coming in thicker than it ever has before (I thought it was because she was pregnant), maybe she'll get a show coat in. Her handler really wanted to special her, so that may now be a possibility now.

I'll update next steps as they come.


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: Bad News
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:42 am 
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So sorry to hear this news! And yep, it truly does suck!
The first time I bred my bitch, Leila, she didn't get pregnant, so I know the disappointment you feel!
Hopefully next time will be the one!

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Marianne E
Louie 02/15/2002
Cooper 12/07/07
Leila 03/21/08
Bridgette 01/12/09
Echo 08/10/12

Waiting at the Bridge: Little Sister, Savana, Tivy, Slider, Arrow and all the others, I will always love you.


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: Bad News
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:57 pm 
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Oh no, how upsetting! Can you maybe breed her to Lars this time rather than waiting, just in case?

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Owned by Ellie (tri CKCS) Hetty & Lottie (blenheim CKCS). Always missing my Henry (blenheim CKCS) 13/4/02 - 4/6/10 and George (buff cocker 10/4/02 - 6/8/16)

Spaniels are the best dogs!!


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: Bad News
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:23 pm 
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I am sorry Gale. That really sucks! I had a girl miss recently too. I hope your luck is better next time around.

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: Bad News
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:32 pm 
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My girl missed this year as well, so I feel your pain. It happens to everyone at some point, but disappointing all the same. :dk


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: Bad News
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 3:54 pm 
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Gale I am so sorry to read your news :( I was looking forward to sharing puppy stories. I didn't ultrasound Emmie but I think she is expecting.

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: New Decisions
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:11 pm 
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So, about 6 weeks ago, I put on my big girl panties and quit pouting about Tango missing. It happened, not the end of the world. As so often happens in life, there may be a silver lining. Tango has continued to put in coat for the first time since she blew it a year and a half ago. The only reason I pulled her off the show circuit was she blew her coat. Originally, I had planned to show her to her Grand Championship before breeding her. So, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it will keep coming in. She has passed the critical time frame (2 mos. past her season) without dropping coat. At this point, I'm looking toward the San Diego/Silver Bay KC at the end of February. I don't think she'll be in full show coat by then, but maybe enough to get by. Hopefully, she'll finish her Grand championship by next September when I will attempt to breed her again. I am also going to take her to a reproductive vet to make sure there aren't any unknown problems--I don't think there are, but before I ship her off again, I want to make sure.

I have some options as far as breeding her. I can send her back to Lars. I continue to think that he would be an outstanding sire for her puppies. But another possibility has popped up. I have been speaking with a highly-respected, longtime breeder in the midwest. She bred and owns a stud dog who has produced multiple champions and is linebred to Tango. I can take Tango back to the Nationals with me this summer and she will take her home with her. This would give Tango 2 months to acclimate before coming in heat. Or, she has a son of this dog that is a champion but has been bred only one time. However, his first litter of 3 puppies have all finished quickly and he produced the things that Tango needs: coat, size, and long necks. She is willing to send the dog to me so that Tango would be bred in her own environment. If I do breed her to the midwest dog, I'll send her to Lars the following year. Fortunately, I have a little time before I have to make that decision.

One of the reasons that I am willing to wait on breeding to Lars is that I have bought a puppy that was sired by Lars. Her name is Tricep No Contest at Caramy (call name Tessa). She will be coming from Canada once we know that her bite doesn't go off (around 5-6 mos). There's no reason to think that it will, but you never know for sure until their teeth come in. Bad bite = no conformation showing and no breeding. I'm buying her basically sight unseen (except for 2 photos) based upon the recommendation of a longtime breeder whose opinion I highly respect. What I do know is she's black and at 12 weeks, her breeder described her as a "little hellion," which translates into plenty of cockertude which is very important for success in the conformation ring. Of course, I wonder how my reigning diva, Tango, is going to take the addition of a second diva!

Finally, the same midwestern breeder has agreed to sell me the next really top male puppy that she gets out of her stud dog. Up to this point, she has always pretty much petted out any puppy that she didn't keep for herself. But she says that now, she already has 3 champion sons that she has kept and is beginning to feel a responsibility to the breed to help and mentor novices that are starting out. Lucky me! What I had realized is that I am going to have to get my own stud dog because there is really nothing at this point that I want to breed to in the California/Arizona/Nevada area and I don't want to have to keep shipping my dogs back east or to Canada.

So my first litter is just postponed about a year. In the meantime, I'll have 2 conformation dogs to show this next show year with a possible third (a little boy) on the way as well as Shadow to show in performance. So, I'll keep busy while waiting for those babies!


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding my first cocker litter-Update: New Decisions
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:52 pm 
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YAY I'm so excited for you and happy. I will admit i was totally bummed for quite some time about Tango lol but sounds like good things are heading your way! :-) decisions decisions you have a lot to think about! I suck at decisions haha so better you than me right now!

Can't wait to hear what you decide and how it all goes!!!


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