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 Post subject: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 7:59 pm 
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Hello everyone I'm new to this forum and new to owning a cocker spaniel.

My girls name is penny she is just over a year and has has some skin problems and has been to the vet multiple times for her skin when we first brought her home (he said it was dermatitis)and took medicine that seemed to help a little. But she has very dry skin and is constantly itching and trying to chew at her skin her nub(tail) is bald and has only little hairs randomly on it. If anyone could give us ideas on what we can do to sooth/stop her from itching and get her hair back it would be greatly appreciated !


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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:23 pm 
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Perhaps a change in diet is in order? Many cockers are sensitive to grains, which make them itch, so they chew on themselves. Go to a grain-free, single protein food.

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Sophie, 10-22-2015, home 9/19/15-
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Maggie Mae: home 9/1/2014 - 3/31/2015, 7 mo of Love
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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:52 am 
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We have put her on a food trial and changed her food all together and it didn't show any real difference that we could notice.


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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 5:31 am 
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You may want to consider seeing a specialist (dermatologist/allergist) to get some testing on what may be the cause or allergy.

Were there any other symptoms with the food change (change in protein), as some dogs don't do well with certain proteins. My friend's dog is allergic to all things chicken!
Also, is the area around the tail the only area that seems affected or are there other patchy spots? If it is only on her butt, perhaps it is something she sets in a lot, something or area outside that might be chemically treated or something? :dk

Because of the current irritation, I would not use any natural product recommended unless you have discussed it with the vet or allergist.

Keep us informed.

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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 8:36 am 
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Having been in that position with my previous dog, my first question would be for how long was the food change done? Did you do it on your own, or was the advice under the care of the vet? When done under a vet. was it for 3 months? And yes it does take that long for an offending food or chemical to leave the body. When my previous dog was put on a special diet,and they said a three month trial there was a dramatic difference. Several years before that I had gotten sick from milk intolerance and I was told it would take 3 months to get out of my system, which that was pretty accurate before I would feel better. It was a terrible time for me because just about anything processed and that included bread, had milk in it, so I had to make everything from scratch if I wanted to eat.
Chris mentioned a food change, a single protein source, such as say Duck and potato, known as a Limited Ingredient Diet, was your food change to a single source or was it to a food with many ingredient in it?
Don't even get me going on what is going on in the dog food industry, but when I got Snickie I knew how different things would be for her from her predecessor, I went with a small company dog food limited ingredient, I also would change it up with another companies limited ingr. diet food, which she did well on also, so every month was a rotation and no problems. Almost 3 years into it and the one company got bought out by the junk dog food Giant maker, which I had doubts but I would give them a chance, everything went well until about 6 months later and there was recall after recall, which lasted about 8 months in total. It was a good thing that I had another company that I could rely on. When all the dust settled, I bought a bag of food that she always did well on, guess what she went into a scratching and chewing frenzy, She drove me nuts at night. Well that was the end of that company. My second source company about a year later got bought out by another big corporate giant, who has no business making dog food and they said there would be no changes. It probably took 10 months on that food when she went into her biting and scratching frenzy, I changed the protein and still she scratched, so there was another company that went down the tubes by way of the corporate giants.
One thing that I will mention and people know that I do cook for Snickie, I still buy and feed her kibble, basically it is used as treats, I put some kibble in a treat ball for her to have when I leave for work in the morning to keep her occupied for awhile, and right before bed. I still want her to eat kibble in case she ever has to stay at the vets, it makes feeding her there much simpler, instead of having a fussy eating dog that will only eat home cooked foods. In cases like yours, I really think making food for the dog is better, you know exactly what is going into it, it takes a lot of dedication to do that and I know that a lot of people aren't up to that. But keep in mind, it may not be the protein or the grain but other chemicals and vitamins that they source out for, that aren't made here, that could be the cause. Food companies only have to label what THEY are putting in, when they source out, they do not have to label what THAT source is putting into it. A big play on words or shall we say no words.
Not to get off topic, some of you know that I work for a major food manufacturer, dealing in snack foods, and "health food" One particular "health food" which got bought out by my company saw their sales sky rocket, then one day someone in a health food store investigated the product, he blew the whistle on them. This so called"health food" had 100% GMO's in it. The sales plummeted. They are slowly pulling this product out of the gutter, it is now 100% GMO free, but has another couple of years to go before it can be labeled organic by FDA ruling. If the giant food companies are doing this to our food and worse, can you imagine what they are doing to the pet foods to save a buck? In the mean time, a lot of pets are suffering like my previous dog and yours. I have found two other private dog food makers of kibble that I use now and Snickie is doing well on, but in the next few years I'm sure they will get bought out also. I believe this is just the tip of the iceberg.


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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:27 am 
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Yes her food trial was for about 4-5 months on perception diet food from the vet.nothing really changed much with her skin with the whole food trial and changing to a limited ingredient. The hair loss is from the tip of her nub to the base of it and thin hair on the inside of her back legs next to the top of her knee and its dry scin with dandruff and she will at least once a week get little red bumps on her tummy where there is no fur. Recently we just took her to the vet to get her skin looked at again by another vet at the same office and he said that there isn't anything that can really be done for her it's just the way she is his words not mine. Is there anything I could giver her such a fish oil or something similar that we could give her to possibly help her?


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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:33 pm 
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Yes you can use fish oil, or salmon oil which is better, or krill oil. I don't believe in what the vet says when he says that there is nothing to be done, that's just the way the dog is. Ya know, I like my vet, but if I had another dog like my previous dog with the skin and ear issues, I would take that dog off to a holistic vet in a heartbeat. They know more about nutrition, than most conventional vets out there, and I believe that most of these skin problems are caused by nutritional deficits or whatever the dog food companies are putting into the food knowingly or not knowingly. When I got Snickie and took her to the vet she was at 4 months having an ear issue, meds and then more meds, and then the vet saying an allergy and that's the way she was. I took matters into my own hands, changed the food to a limited ingredient food, cooked for her and cleaned her ears everyday and cleared up the problem. Six years later and there are no skin or ear issue problems. If my actions at the time didn't produce results, I had already picked out a holistic vet that I was going to take her to, I was not going down that road a second time. Two years ago she developed conjunctivitis\dry eye, six months of expensive meds that did nothing, told the vet I was going to up the veggies in her food, add the fish oil and other supplements to "boost" up her immune system and to give me 7 weeks. At the 8th week brought her in, and the vet was astounded, no red eyes and her tear production,was out of the "gray" area, even now the vet checks her eyes and all he can do is shake his head. If it were me I would start cooking for the dog, and use salmon oil if you don't want to do that, I would do research on the individually owned pet food companies and change her over to one of those, and if that doesn't work go see a holistic vet.


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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:16 pm 
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Check out this link.
http://www.nutriscan.org/knowledge-center.html

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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:17 pm 
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Did you just try the 1 food challenge? It may be that she was allergic to something in that food.

Personally, I would try to feed her something she's never had before like venison or rabbit and see how that works then start adding things back in.

I would do ground raw with bones included so that it would be a smidge more balanced and not even add any starches but that would be me. Is there a vet school nearby that you could get a 2nd/3rd opinion?


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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:55 pm 
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I am willing to try cooking/making food for her but I'm sorta clueless on what to make or do as far as that goes,I've always just went and got a bag of dog food for any other dog that I've had in the past while living with my parents. But if giving her food that I make is going to be better and help her get her bald butt to grow back it would be awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 7:04 pm 
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Campese04 wrote:
The hair loss is from the tip of her nub to the base of it and thin hair on the inside of her back legs next to the top of her knee and its dry skin with dandruff and she will at least once a week get little red bumps on her tummy where there is no fur.


Ok, the word "dandruff" alerts me to ask if the vet has done a skin scraping to check for mites and/or something called "walking dandruff"?

I have twice had rescued dogs with this. The only way to really diagnose it is with skin scraping and very careful analysis under the microscope, and you have to have a vet who believes there is something amiss, and that if they can identify it, they can treat it properly. I'm not sure from your comments if this is the vet who will do that for you. The treatment is Ivermectin, either orally or 3 shots 10 days apart. When the rescue dogs had it, I treated every dog in the house, because they do pass it around, directly and in the environment. It can also be passed to people.

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Sophie, 10-22-2015, home 9/19/15-
---------------------------------------
Maggie Mae: home 9/1/2014 - 3/31/2015, 7 mo of Love
Feather: 3/23/1994 - 11/17/2011, 17 yrs, 8 mo of Love


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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 7:46 pm 
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As Chris suggests, I think asking the vet about a skin test might be a good idea first to eliminate any parasitic issues or other skin conditions. It's a process of elimination so you can find out what the culprit is. If that leads to nothing, nutriscan testing is another option to direct you to the right foods.

And if you are open to complimenting kibble with home cooked food, please do search this forum for tips on home cooking. You can buy bulk meat (i buy turkey as a base from costco) and inexpensive organs from the butcher, various veggies and put them all in a crock pot.I put some coconut oil in as well It's very quick and I freeze it in containers. It lasts me a while.
Search this forum for "crock pot" and "limited ingredient" diets and you'll find some good info. You could try uncommon meats like venison or rabbit as well, but the nutriscan saliva test is a good idea to get a sense of direction. It helped me.

Agree with Denise - some commercial foods have a million ingredients and we don't really know what they are.

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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:33 am 
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Yes she has had her skin scraped 2 times and the vet looked at it in a microscope once and the other time he sent it out to a lab to have it tested and they said both times that they didn't find any mites or anything. I'm not too sure if it is true but my wife told a co-worker what's going on with the dog and she had cockers for a long time and said cockers are known for having bad skin and mentioned something called "cocker crud" or something that sounds similar to that again not sure if I believe that's true.


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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:28 am 
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Campese04 wrote:
Yes she has had her skin scraped 2 times and the vet looked at it in a microscope once and the other time he sent it out to a lab to have it tested and they said both times that they didn't find any mites or anything. I'm not too sure if it is true but my wife told a co-worker what's going on with the dog and she had cockers for a long time and said cockers are known for having bad skin and mentioned something called "cocker crud" or something that sounds similar to that again not sure if I believe that's true.


A lot of people, even vets, just say " cockers have bad ears" or "cockers have bad skin". there is always a reason for it happening. Yes, there is something called cocker crud. It's just about finding out what the source is. More often than not, it is something in the processed foods, but most people like to believe that it is just a cocker problem and I really don't like hearing that. I've seen many mixed breeds/other dogs with skin issues too and it's just about finding the source, whether environmental or dietary.

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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:59 am 
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What was the prescription dog food that you used for the 4-5 month trial?

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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:30 am 
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Science hill prescription diet z/d was the food that the vet had us start her on for the food trial,and that was done for like 4-5 months like I said and was no real difference at all. So I think we might try cooking her fresh food and see how it goes. And does anyone suggest fish oil,salmon oil,krill oil one over the other ?

I would like to thank you all in advance for all the advice and what not.


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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:19 am 
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To be honest, I am shocked the vet prescribed this food, but not surprised. Practically all vets push Hill's science diet. My old vet did too. I don't know if they get some $ for marketing it or what. And my dog had problems. The ingredients are simply not suitable to cocker (and many dog's health). Corn, brwers rice, gluten meal, whole grain are huge culprits for skin problems and ear infections. Tthere is no real meat in this food. I am sorry you and your pooch had to go through this. Please let me/us know if you need some tips on home cooking and other brand foods I am sure she will do much better on. Need to remove all this grain.

Dog food advisor has good tips on diet and assessments of various foods.

Whole Grain Corn, Chicken Meal, Brewers Rice, Egg Product, Corn Gluten Meal, Whole Grain Sorghum, Pork Fat, Chicken Liver Flavor,

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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:47 pm 
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Cici wrote:
To be honest, I am shocked the vet prescribed this food, but not surprised. Practically all vets push Hill's science diet. My old vet did too. I don't know if they get some $ for marketing it or what. And my dog had problems. The ingredients are simply not suitable to cocker (and many dog's health). Corn, brwers rice, gluten meal, whole grain are huge culprits for skin problems and ear infections. Tthere is no real meat in this food. I am sorry you and your pooch had to go through this. Please let me/us know if you need some tips on home cooking and other brand foods I am sure she will do much better on. Need to remove all this grain.

Dog food advisor has good tips on diet and assessments of various foods.

Whole Grain Corn, Chicken Meal, Brewers Rice, Egg Product, Corn Gluten Meal, Whole Grain Sorghum, Pork Fat, Chicken Liver Flavor,


Any tips on what to make to feed her or get kibble would be great


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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:20 pm 
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Sam:
I suspected that it was probably a Science Diet product. :bang Here are a thread on the food analysis that a forum member had done several years ago. Hopefully one or both will help to assist you in selecting the product and the kibble that you want.

https://www.zimfamilycockers.com/Forums ... =35&t=2975

Certainly, post any issues or questions as you go. I don't know how large of a town you live in, but if there are any high quality/specialty dog or pet stores there, they may carry the better products. Try the duck and potato or whatever the person may recommend. Hopefully, they are knowledgeable, or ask someone here as we seem to have some well informed members who have been through this.

Keeping fingers crossed and you might be able to save the allergy testing for something else. :th-up

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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:10 pm 
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http://www.hillspet.com/en/us/products/pd-canine-zd-dry has ingredient list. Corn, soy and chicken are all things commonly causing sensitivities. What are "Natural flavors"? What about those vitamins - are they dairy/gluten free?

The reason I would use find a single protein raw mix is that when you feed raw, you dont need to supplement calcium. Just add the right amt of bone and its done. Minerals are absorbable. Longterm, you cant JUST feed meat & bone, but you can certainly get away with it for a few months. Then you could truly feed a single protein and NOTHING else and then add stuff back in. Feeding commercial raw is expensive, but if you can get results, you can then slowly add foods back in and have a true elimination diet.

There are duck or venison and potato or fish and potato kibbles available. I'm pretty sure BJs has one that is decent. IIRC, Costco has some decent foods available. If you subscribe to Whole DOg Journal, they'll rate kibbles and have many helpful articles. Unfortunately, I dont have a current subscription to look stuff up for you. Dog Food advisor can also help you determine whether a food has decent ingredients.


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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:28 pm 
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I agree with feeding raw. It might also be a thyroid issue. You might want to have her thyroid checked.


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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:52 pm 
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I PMed you some suggestions. I hope you find them helpful. Raw is great too, no doubt - just can be hard on the wallet! :goof Whatever it is, I hope you can get to the bottom of the bald butt issue soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:43 pm 
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What food did you start with?

You need some omega 3's, some omega 6's are needed in the diet. Flaxseed oil with lignans, coconut oil virgin cold pressed, fish oil like above. Try some lamb, frozen pre-made raw, or can.

Then brush the teeth with coconut oil if a year or less old. You will never have teeth problems or that vet bill in cleaning. In your area the oil will be melted as 75 degrees it about to soft. Some raw chicken wings and turkey necks as I chop up the necks in half dollar size store in the freezer. Chicken wing organic are hard to find. What ever eats wheat could pass on the problem. We need to get the gut flora in shape. Trace minerals could help. At lease two months to see a change.

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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:52 am 
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Hi and welcome to the forum!

Sounds like you've gotten a lot of great advice here. Food allergies or parasites are two possibilities of what is going on with your dog. Thyroid was suggested too. She seems young for thyroid issues but testing is easy. However if you are testing for thyroid you will want to do more than the simple test most vets do. Make sure your vet runs a full panel Thyroid test (T4, freeT4, T3, freeT3, TgAA)... I just did this for my dog so I'd have a baseline and it was pricey but now I have a baseline if I ever need it. Another possibility is Vitamin A Responsive Dermatosis that is common in Cockers but often missed because it's dismissed as allergies. (See this thread: https://www.zimfamilycockers.com/Forums ... t=+Vitamin )

Terry suggested seeing a dermatologist/allergist. I would also like to highly recommend that option. My previous dog had many skin issues over the years including scarcopi (sp) mange, walking dandruff, allergies, and doggie lice. The mange was the first issue and I went back and forth to my vet for months... she had multiple dips and skin scrapping... every trip cost me an office visit plus treatment. It was only after I went to a dermatologist that we found that she had mange. In the end the dermatologist cost a heck of a lot less and she was able to diagnosis CORRECTLY the first visit and got us on the right treatment plan immediately.

Don't be discouraged. There is a physical issue going on here.. once you find the issue and can address it you will have the pleasure of having the best dog in the world. :hp

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 Post subject: Re: Bald butt...
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:25 pm 
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Campese04 wrote:
Science hill prescription diet z/d was the food that the vet had us start her on for the food trial,and that was done for like 4-5 months like I said and was no real difference at all. So I think we might try cooking her fresh food and see how it goes. And does anyone suggest fish oil,salmon oil,krill oil one over the other ?

I would like to thank you all in advance for all the advice and what not.



Since you mentioned that your dog was put on Science Diet ZD that is what my previous dog was put on and lived on for the last 5 years of her life. When I said there was a dramatic difference I meant that. Yeah I know what goes in that product, corn and all the other bad stuff. But what most people don't know or understand is that it is hydrolyzed, which means that it is so finely ground the dogs system does not recognize it as anything and passes through the body without creating an allergic response. My previous dog had leaky gut, and her skin and ear conditioned cleared up on that. Had I known back then that I could have taken her to a holistic vet and have that treated she would not have had to stay on the ZD. I so didn't want her on that food, but whenever I tried to change it, it turned into another 500 or more visit to get her back on track again. There was a lot of frustration.
Since you did this trial for 4-5 months on the ZD, and you did not see any results, I can pretty much say that this is not a food intolerance or food allergy. It may be an environmental issue which I think is low, but I wouldn't rule it out, but what I suspect more, is some sort of supplement or vitamin deficiency. And yes as was mentioned, even though the dog is young it could be a thyroid issue, not likely but it's possible.
You can try cooking for the dog for a couple of months and see what happens, maybe real food might do it, if that doesn't do it I really think its some deficiency.
And Joe is right with the omega 3, that is where most dogs are deficient with a processed diet. I would use the salmon or krill with the home cooking.


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