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 Post subject: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:23 pm 
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Back at the end April I had gotten Nexgard from the vet. As I said in an earlier post I didn't care for it, because having given it to her she kept me up all night long scratching from it, and after being on it for a week she was like a tick magnet, I had pulled countless ticks off of her. The vet had said to give it a little more time, before more of the med got into her system. Well in that respect he was right, after the week she had no more ticks. Because she went into a scratching frenzy he said not to use it the next month, to find something else. So summer came and went and I put nothing on this dog to protect her from fleas or ticks. Ticks kinda disappear here in the hot dry summer and come around in the damp fall when it starts to rain again. She never got any fleas either.
Now that it is fall and damp last week I found a tick on her. I usually have fingernails but right now I don't and I tried getting the tick off and couldn't, they are newly hatched so they are small.So I had to leave it. When I checked for it the next day it was gone, but I found two others, again they were small,and I had to leave them. The next day I checked her and those two were gone. Last night I was going through her and found two more on the top of her head, as I worked my why through her fur I found them and they were dead. :OMY NexGard is a monthly oral and she hasn't had it since the end of April. This stuff is obviously still in her system and is killing the ticks. My question to those who use this stuff monthly. what is this stuff doing to your dogs? I don't know about you but this disturbs me that it is still in her after almost six months. Not working at this point to repel the ticks, but working to kill them when they bite her. It should be labeled as a six month oral not a monthly


Last edited by Denise in CT on Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:18 pm 
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That's scary! And even more so because it is an oral application, which means her body isn't clearing it out in 6 months time. That would make me wonder about liver damage.

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Cricket, home 1-29-2012 - 3-29-2017, 5 yrs, 2 mo of Love
Sophie, 10-22-2015, home 9/19/15-
---------------------------------------
Maggie Mae: home 9/1/2014 - 3/31/2015, 7 mo of Love
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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:35 am 
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I know, it really is scary. In away I'm glad my fingernails were short because I wouldn't have known that they were dying. Thought it strange that they were there one day and gone the next, never expected them to be dying 6 months later. Your last sentence though is really scarier. I am planning on calling the vet today and talking to him on this.


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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:10 pm 
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Denise in CT wrote:
I know, it really is scary. In away I'm glad my fingernails were short because I wouldn't have known that they were dying. Thought it strange that they were there one day and gone the next, never expected them to be dying 6 months later. Your last sentence though is really scarier. I am planning on calling the vet today and talking to him on this.


That not good. I know my Oliver has changed since he been on Frontline Plus. His breath has changed it smells and it's not his lip folds. His breathing has been more labored than normal, as I was forced by my wife and her dad to do something about his fleas. Once a week bath was not cutting it for them. I can tell you years ago when he first started with Advantage using only for three months he didn't have any fleas for nine months of the year. It's time to clear out his system until next year.

I would say nothing is good if eaten or applied to the body. It's a nice convince to have those blood suckers controlled.

I did buy some Vets Best flea and tick control for next year. To spray on the fur before we go outside, my guess organic apple cider vinegar would do the same thing it's all in the smell. Something to try. The vinegar is safe to put on your heavy coated cocker.

The park we walk has a very high rate of Lyme, if fact it's one of the highest in California.

Joe


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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:10 pm 
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I called the Vet today and he couldn't believe that NexGard could still be killing the ticks, maybe just for a few weeks longer than the month but not nearly six months later. He has no problem running any blood test to check her kidney and liver function to make sure they are functioning normal. He said to call the company and talk to them on this issue.

He did say that female ticks are the blood sucking ones and the males are not. He thought the ones that disappeared off of her the next day may have been the males, they sometimes will attach to their victim in the search for a female, and then just drop off after not finding one. As for the two that I found dead, he thought they may have come to the end of their life cycle. I could almost buy that, but as I brushed her tonight and I flipped up her ear I saw a tick and as I went through her fur to get at it, it fell off into my hand dead. :OMY So I have now found 3 dead ones and 5 that mysteriously vanished off of her in a week. If NexGard isn't still in her then what is making these bloodsuckers drop off or die? Now to find the time to call the company and see what is up with this stuff.
Joe I would gladly spray ACV on her,and if she had developed any fleas this summer I was going to spray that on her, but fleas were never a problem. And I would use it now, but there seems to be no reason to since they are dying and or dropping off of her now :dk You're right this stuff is poison and it is for convenience, more for us than them. I would trust the topical more than the oral any day.


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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:07 pm 
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(Vets Best Flea and Tick Control Spray) reviews on Amazon, could be a try. I have kept him off of the tick area these days. Hasten up his pee mail reading, and I just told my wife no more flea and tick control this year. All I heard was silence. I spent the money on nematodes here her dad could do the same as they have ants all over his place. I gave all the showers and hair cuts.

One thing about fleas, that coconut oil kill them DEAD FAST a little on your finger if it doesn't melt off first. :lol Wonder if it stops their breathing it's just instant kill.

If you called NexGard has less weight than the Vet, he or she should make that phone call or the Vet isn't worth the money.

Joe

Make an apple cider vinegar (OACV) solution. Instead of putting vinegar directly onto your pet's skin, which can irritate his/her skin, you need to make a diluted solution. Mix up 1 cup of ACV, 1 quart warm water, and 1 ounce of Castille soap. This diluted solution is powerful enough to deal with fleas and ticks, but not so strong that you will be able to smell it.

If you want to add something extra to help repel the fleas and ticks from your pet, add 2-3 drops of lavender or cedar oil to the mixture. The scent of the oil will help keep the fleas and ticks off and also give the solution a pleasant smell. You can also add 2 ounces of aloe vera to the mix as well. It will help moisturize your pet's skin and repel the fleas.[1][2]
ACV is nontoxic to dogs and cats. However, if your pet has sensitive skin, change the ration of ACV to water in your rinse to one part ACV, three parts water.



http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Natural-F ... er-Vinegar


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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:32 pm 
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oh dear, this is worrisome. I use frontline on Cici every month.

With the ACV solution, how often do you bathe and soak the dog in it and how often does it need to be reapplied? Lyme's is a big problem here. I simply cannot bathe her once a week "with my schedule.

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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:08 am 
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It's a spray and brush it in or rub it on by hand and off you go on your walk. I haven't used it but I would add Dr. Bonner peppermint soap instead as a fragrance. I do know that this is another instant kill. It's the first soap I used on Oliver if I find fleas. It's all organic.

Daily before going out.

Joe


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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:13 am 
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I read the information that was submitted in both the US and Europe by the manufacturer during the drug approval process. According to the testing of the Nexgard, the active ingredient, Afoxolaner, had a mean half-life of between 8 and 18 days. Interestingly, for Collies (which also show sensitivity to Ivermectin) the half-life was 48 days. So even in the case of Collies, it would be highly unlikely that any of the Nexgard would still be in the dog's system after 4 months.

I disagree with the premise that it's use is more for our convenience. I had a Shih-tzu years ago that almost died from flea-induced anemia. She came very close to needing transfusions, and because of her dense coat I was not aware of how many fleas she had. Fleas and ticks are a health hazard to both dogs and their humans, not just a nuisance, and if apple cider vinegar worked so well there would be no market for Nexgard and products like it.

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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:49 pm 
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Our first cocker in the late 70's she would get hot spots and one night I killed over 120 fleas on hey body.. Killed by tweezers.
I would hold a flea check every night after that. This on a buff cocker and we kept her in a short cut.

For ticks I tried ceder oil on his collar it didn't work. Never tried the ceder oil over his body. When I found two active ticks washing mud off his paws into the shower we went and use white distilled vinegar and three more ticks dropped off.

Today with a little longer coat with coconut oil on the finger is instant death for a flea. Back in the 70's a citrus spray would work then too but wasn't instant.

To bad one can't cut the coconut oil into a spray, but that would make a grimy dirty dog on our dirty walks.

Joe


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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:31 am 
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Darra wrote:
I read the information that was submitted in both the US and Europe by the manufacturer during the drug approval process. According to the testing of the Nexgard, the active ingredient, Afoxolaner, had a mean half-life of between 8 and 18 days. Interestingly, for Collies (which also show sensitivity to Ivermectin) the half-life was 48 days. So even in the case of Collies, it would be highly unlikely that any of the Nexgard would still be in the dog's system after 4 months.

I disagree with the premise that it's use is more for our convenience. I had a Shih-tzu years ago that almost died from flea-induced anemia. She came very close to needing transfusions, and because of her dense coat I was not aware of how many fleas she had. Fleas and ticks are a health hazard to both dogs and their humans, not just a nuisance, and if apple cider vinegar worked so well there would be no market for Nexgard and products like it.



If you had a dog that you were finding dead ticks on and you hadn't put anything on or in her for nearly six months I think you would be a little concerned too. These dead ticks were loosely attached when they died,so they bit into her, something is making them die. So what is making them die? I called Merial today but they don't have an answer either. They wanted to know if I used anything else on her which the answer is no. Why, because there were no problems with fleas or ticks, and there still isn't because the ticks are dropping off within 24 hours, or they die and get stuck in her fur where I find them. There are always exceptions to any drug for humans and animals. One thing I know is, that it is, very hard to kill ticks, that is why they keep coming up with with all these new toxic chemicals,because the fipronal in products like Frontline doesn't work anymore due to the ticks becoming immune to the chemicals
Here is a quick read on what happens when you start using this stuff http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/th ... -products/


Darra as far as the ACV goes I haven't tried it, but,in the third year of Snickies life I used a homemade lemon spray. Why, because the previous year I used the topical Revolution, and it was abysmal, and I figured for a few bucks versus mega bucks I could probably get the same kind of results. I was surprised at how well it worked. It worked better than Revolution for ticks.The lemon worked by repelling them, as well as the fleas. The draw back is you have to be committed to it and use it every-time you go outside. That is the inconvenience of using a natural spray, but it does work. But everyone wants it easy, here is a pill and it will last a month or the other one Bravecto 3 months, now that is convenient. I remember the old days when you had to spray your dog with a flea spray every time it went out, because that is all they had. And I also remember when you used heart worm prevention everyday, now its once a month or once a year, convenient for us but don't read to deeply into the ill effects that some dogs suffer from. The once a day heart worm is still the safest, but that isn't convenient.
Since I didn't get to far with talking to a person from the company today I may make another call or sit down and write them a letter. And I will keep track of how many more ticks drop off or die on her. That's all I can do right now.
Joe Back in the late seventies they did have flea combs, you could get dozens off in one stroke, you could have saved yourself a lot of time. :wk


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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:53 am 
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Yes, this products are very convenient with a price tag to match. No doubt at all they do the job. However, it is very difficult for me to believe that frontline or anything applied stays only in the skin. everything absorbed by the skin makes it's way into our bodies. So I do wonder about their accumulated effect over time even if the dog shows no immediate serious reaction to the topical.

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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:44 pm 
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I agree that the topicals don't just sit on the surface. We used Frontline on our little Cairn Terrier mix, Punkin. She would pant and pant for at least 24 hours after application and drank a ton of water. She acted like she was really hot... found the coolest floor she could and got as much body on it as possible. I can't imagine that reaction was just because it was sitting on her skin.

Later in life, she developed spindle-cell carcinoma. Not saying there was a connection, but the cancer was on her back just behind her right shoulder blade and it was attached to the underside of her skin. Our vet did surgery and was able to get most of it, but 3 years later it came back in the same location. Due to her age (13) we didn't do a second surgery and eventually had to send her to the bridge.

I have used Nexgard twice this year for Jennie and she hasn't had an reaction to it so far, but I'm planning to discontinue it as soon as the cold weather arrives. We don't have ticks in my area and the fleas don't usually survive the first good hard frost. Fingers crossed we don't have the warmer than usual winter they are talking about.

Jennie is almost 18 months old and I haven't seen a flea on her since the day I brought her home. I started the Nexgard because we visit my mom a few times each week and her cat, Rascal, catches mice and rats and brings them home. I figured it was likely that he brought fleas home with them, so wanted to be sure Jennie was protected.

It's so hard when there aren't any long-term studies to rely on. :dk

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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:56 pm 
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Has anyone tried these natural remedies and do they work?

http://products.mercola.com/healthypets ... epellents/

http://www.iherb.com/Dr-Mercola-Spot-On ... Each/64754

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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:50 pm 
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Amazon ratings on Dr. Mercola Natural Flea and Tick Defense - A Repellant

5 star
46%
4 star
13%
3 star
6%
2 star
10%
1 star
25%

https://www.amazon.com/Mercola-Natural- ... B004GTD3UK


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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:49 pm 
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Sue, I know there are no long term results for this stuff. The trial they did here was with 32 dogs, one died from old age, 2 or 3 never finished the trial for whatever reason, and 2 were allergic to it, so it was only 27 or 28 dogs that finished the trial, not a big number, but one doesn't really know what is down the road for these dogs either.
Since last week we took 2 walks into the woods, that's not a good thing at this time of the year, but it is fall and I like to take fall foliage pictures, the drawback, ticks. After our walks in the woods, both times I saw and took off 12 small ticks that were crawling on her each time, in total about 24. Since they were so tiny I knew I didn't get them all, and monitored her closely. In total from the 2 walks in the woods I missed 7 that I found attached to her the next day, I left them attached, and between 6 to 8 hours later they all came up dead on her. I have been dealing with ticks for 30 years now and the only time I have had dead ticks on a dog is when I am using a pesticide, and even then I'm lucky. This stuff is definitely still in her. If anyone is using this on a monthly basis try skipping a month and see what happens, see if whatever you don't want on your dog is still dying. This product is definitely off of my list. Here is 2 pictures of her on our walks.


Attachments:
File comment: Here we are at the dam at the reservoir
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File comment: walking around the reservoir
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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:45 pm 
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ONGosh! and she has a full coat that the ticks have to make their way through!! whoa!

Off topic, and just out of curiosity, what shampoo and conditioner do you use?
I have a full coated dog now, need some recommendations.

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Sophie, 10-22-2015, home 9/19/15-
---------------------------------------
Maggie Mae: home 9/1/2014 - 3/31/2015, 7 mo of Love
Feather: 3/23/1994 - 11/17/2011, 17 yrs, 8 mo of Love


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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:16 pm 
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I have nothing to add to the flea/tick part of this debate as I use Trifexis for fleas and heartworm and nothing for ticks. Not a problem in our area. However Dr. Dodds did tell me that most flea treatment was originally meant to be used every 45 days, but people forgot so to make it easier they made it every 30 days. I mark the calendar and use every 45 days.

Chris, as you know both my girls are in full coat. Kaitlyn who doesn't mat and has a straighter coat I use Coat Handler shampoo and conditioner. I used it for years on Karlie also but have recently switched Karlie whose coat is much curlier, and more cottony (mats easily) to Stanzko shampoo and conditioner. It was recommended to me by another cocker owner and I discussed it with Julie Hydro who is also having good luck with it. It has helped a lot with the matting and making her coat lay straigter and smoother not so frizzy.

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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:11 am 
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However Dr. Dodds did tell me that most flea treatment was originally meant to be used every 45 days, but people forgot so to make it easier they made it every 30 days. I mark the calendar and use every 45 days.

That is news to me! Thanks for sharing!

I am leaning toward at least trying this and using a flea shampoo mixed with her neem shampoo to bathe her just as an additional preventative measure and drop frontline.

http://www.amazon.com/OUT-Flea-Tick-Spo ... ck+spot+on

I REALLY hope it works. Let me know if anyone else wants to try OUT

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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:47 pm 
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Chris Gomes wrote:
ONGosh! and she has a full coat that the ticks have to make their way through!! whoa!

Off topic, and just out of curiosity, what shampoo and conditioner do you use?
I have a full coated dog now, need some recommendations.



Chris, I use ion keratin shampoo and conditioner that I get at Sally's Beauty. In those pictures she is in dire need of a bath, but knowing that I was going to be taking her out on several outings in the woods I held off. When she was younger I use to take pictures of her right after a bath, now I just let her be a dog. No matter what, whenever we go any wheres she gets plenty of ooohs and aahhs with her fur. She is my little chameleon, in the pictures above the temps were in the 20s and her fur shrinks down from the cold, in the summer with the humidity it expands, she looks a lot lighter in summer and darker in winter
You should post a picture of Cricket,I would love to see her in full coat, my favorites are still parti's and tri's, but here in the northeast with muddy wet springs and falls and red clay, a white dog just is too much work, great for drier climates. The day I met Snickie, I said whoa, the color of mud, that's perfect!
Yes, the dog ticks like to burrow down into all that fur, but the deer ticks don't, which maybe a good thing, they will attach by her nose or her eyelids where there isn't much fur and you can find those very easily as small as they are.


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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:50 pm 
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Did you ever call NexGard?

I'm going to use a clove of garlic and brewers yeast in his raw food.

You may have heard of the health benefits of garlic for pets, but are not exactly sure whether it is really safe to give garlic to your dog because there is a lot of information and misinformation available on the internet about the use of garlic in food and supplements for dogs and cats.

In this page, you will find well-researched information on garlic for dogs which I hope will help clear up some of the confusion you may have about garlic.

In particular, this page looks at the following topics:

http://www.natural-dog-health-remedies. ... .html#safe

http://www.natural-dog-health-remedies. ... s.html#how

http://www.natural-dog-health-remedies. ... tml#health

http://www.natural-dog-health-remedies. ... .html#form

http://www.natural-dog-health-remedies. ... -dogs.html

Does that mean garlic is unsafe for dogs? Not quite. The key to safe use of garlic on dogs is the dosage level and frequency of use. For a dog to develop Heinz-body anemia, he would have to eat over 0.5% of his body weight in onions to even begin the oxidative process. It means a healthy 60-pound dog would have to eat a whole 5-oz onion, or several cloves of garlic, to start the Heinz-body process. Since red blood cells are constantly regenerated from the bone marrow, a dog would likely need to ingest this much amount of onion or garlic on a repeated basis to cause permanent harm.

Joe


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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:21 pm 
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Very interesting with the fresh garlic, think I may try that next season in the early spring, a little too late now, hate to say it but snow will be on it's way soon. The leaves are off the trees now so I won't be walking through the woods taking pictures.
Yes I did call but that was a waste of time. The ones that answer the phone just read off a script and told me what I already knew. Wanted to know what else I used, nothing. I do have an email address, maybe one day I'll sit down and write to them. There are problems out there with this, some people have taken their pets to a holistic vet, and the dogs are given dandelion and milk thistle to get it out of their dogs system. I may try this, this past weekend we did our last walk in the woods and the next day found another 3 dead ones on her, which that brings it up to 15 or 16 dead on her in the past few weeks. This would be great if I had just given it to her but I haven't.


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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:00 am 
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A good natural product to use is the Bark to Basic Citrus Shampoo. I buy it from Groomer's Choice. Kills fleas naturally without a lot of harsh chemicals. It is a shampoo that you will need to dilute. Instructions say 16 -1 but I think I usually do more like a 12-1.

This is a link to the gallon size (which is what I buy) but it is also available in 16 oz.
http://www.groomerschoice.com/Bark-2-Ba ... nfo/BBCPG/

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 Post subject: Re: NexGard leaves me wondering..
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:19 pm 
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Joe in North Bay Ca wrote:
....
Does that mean garlic is unsafe for dogs? Not quite. The key to safe use of garlic on dogs is the dosage level and frequency of use. For a dog to develop Heinz-body anemia, he would have to eat over 0.5% of his body weight in onions to even begin the oxidative process. It means a healthy 60-pound dog would have to eat a whole 5-oz onion, or several cloves of garlic, to start the Heinz-body process. Since red blood cells are constantly regenerated from the bone marrow, a dog would likely need to ingest this much amount of onion or garlic on a repeated basis to cause permanent harm.
Joe


While as an evaluator I studied psychometrics and statistics and am well aware of the "how much of this substance can they eat before it actually is toxic" figures, this can also be quite dangerous. For instance, it is a known fact that garlic and onions can cause a breakdown in red blood cells. Yes a normal dog would gave to ingest a large amount for it to be an issue. However, were the specific studies you quoted done only on cocker spaniels? It is a known fact that approximately one-third of all IMHA cases are in cocker spaniels with the fatality rate even with early diagnosis and aggressive treatment at about 50%. There are currently additional studies being done ONLY on cocker spaniels because there is a hypothesis that they are predisposed to the disease due to something in a genetic make-up. Based on that, how much garlic will be too much in a cocker spaniel to trigger an IMHA reaction? Why would anyone take that chance without there being any information on the difference between the possible genetic factor and it's impact in this instance?

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