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 Post subject: thinning the skirt
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:50 am 
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I have searched this forum for my answer, but can't find it so here goes!

Cici has a fluffy skirt right now - not long enough to fall down and on my purchase list are the 44/20 thinning shears and a mars coat king 20.

I have seen some say you don't use the coat king on a skirt - only a longer back/unclipped and maybe to blend the back with the skirt, but NOT use it on the skirt or legs.

I personally don't ever want her to grow a very long skirt, but I want to remove undercoat and reduce the volume a bit on the skirt and her legs - which are getting pretty long. If I use the 3/4 clipper blade on her legs, then I'll go too short for the winter look.

How does one cut and manage volume on a shorter skirt and legs? Is the mars coat king not to be used on the skirt?

And if I were to buy a stripping knife instead, which one?


Attachments:
skirt growing.jpg
skirt growing.jpg [ 138.57 KiB | Viewed 2814 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: thinning the skirt
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:09 pm 
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Well, she looks ADORABLE, but I see what you mean. I'm not a groomer, and Emma usually looks like I weedwacked her, but I think you could accomplish the blending with the thinning shears. Personally, I'm scared of a stripping knife. I do have a Coat King but yes, it's just supposed to be for their back. I used it on my non-cocker, Waylon, when he was much younger and had a thick coat and it pulled undercoat like crazy. It didn't work at all on Emma when I had her in full coat, though, because she had thick hair, but not a lot of fuzzy undercoat. I had better luck using the rubber grooming brushes (they're oval-shaped, like you use for a horse but all rubber). Now THAT will pull hair from her back, especially after a bath.

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 Post subject: Re: thinning the skirt
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:05 pm 
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I use dematting/stripping tools from PetEdge on legs and skirt to debulk/thin after I am done with conformation and starting performance. Removal of undercoat in these areas make for easier care and less matting without losing the longer coat.


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 Post subject: Re: thinning the skirt
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 12:21 pm 
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Thanks again, Tina and Gale. I can't wait to get the right tools! Stripping knives scare me too.

Would this be more appropriate to debulk her skirt a bit as opposed to a striping knife?

https://www.petedge.com/zpetedgemain/ca ... cale=en_US

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 Post subject: Re: thinning the skirt
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 1:13 pm 
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Yes, that is one of the tools that I use. There are also longer bladed ones. It depends on the length of the hair.

Stripping knives are only used on the back and neck. You wouldn't be able to correct the correct angle on other parts of the body. I can't recommend a brand because the 2 best companies have gone out of business in the last 2 years. The handlers are guarding their old stripping knives like they're gold! I do know that you DO NOT want the ones from PetEdge. Whichever brand you do end up buying, make sure it is a "fine" blade (that is what is used on cockers).


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 Post subject: Re: thinning the skirt
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:47 am 
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They resemble the Mars Coat King, but with a handle that looks a whole lot more comfy! My personal opinion is, if you're grooming your pet, and not grooming for conformation (showing her), then use whatever gives you the look you want while making the job easier. I have a coat king, and an oster-branded knockoff that works just as week to me. One thing I've found is if you use it on the dog while they're wet, you'll get tons more hair off.

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 Post subject: Re: thinning the skirt
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:36 pm 
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Santa brought the dogs one of these for Christmas

http://www.amazon.com/DreamSky-deSheddi ... deshedding

So far anyways, its been doing a GREAT job of taking out undercoat by the buckets and leaving the top coat long.

I managed to ruin Princess' coat using a furminator all over her body so I'm trying to correct the problem with this. I wish I'd taken a 'before' pic to compare with but already, her back coat is flat, dark and shinny and her legs are looking much less fuzzy.

I think I'd that Cici looks adorable as is but thinning shears would help you blend the skirt in much better.

I got my thinning shears from upco.com - I'll post in the other thread about them


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 Post subject: Re: thinning the skirt
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:00 pm 
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Thanks for the links and compliments. My new thinning shears were delivered yesterday. Her skirt is growing fast - little devil. Can't wait to use them!

I'm gonna check Upco for curved ones.

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 Post subject: Re: thinning the skirt
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:14 am 
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Cockers4ever wrote:
Santa brought the dogs one of these for Christmas

http://www.amazon.com/DreamSky-deSheddi ... deshedding

So far anyways, its been doing a GREAT job of taking out undercoat by the buckets and leaving the top coat long.

I managed to ruin Princess' coat using a furminator all over her body so I'm trying to correct the problem with this. I wish I'd taken a 'before' pic to compare with but already, her back coat is flat, dark and shinny and her legs are looking much less fuzzy.

I think I'd that Cici looks adorable as is but thinning shears would help you blend the skirt in much better.

I got my thinning shears from upco.com - I'll post in the other thread about them


How is that deshedding comb working? How long is your cocker coat/skirt? Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: thinning the skirt
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:05 pm 
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And here she is after using the thinning shears. It's definitely a better transition. i used the thinning shears on her face, too. Now I just need to debulk the skirt a bit with that deshedding tool above, though I don't really mind it billowy either. It's pretty easy to comb through.

She was grumping after I brought her down from the table. Simply not impwessed.


Attachments:
File comment: I izsh NOT impwessed
Hmph (2).JPG
Hmph (2).JPG [ 162.69 KiB | Viewed 2674 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: thinning the skirt
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:36 pm 
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Has anyone tried combing up the top layer and using thinning shears on the layer beneath it, so it's lighter - or do I sound completely bonkers?

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 Post subject: Re: thinning the skirt
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:32 pm 
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What blade did you use on her back? I use a 5 blade on my pets and leave the skirt a little higher on the sides.

Run the Coat King from the center of the back down the sides into the coat a couple of inches. This will help blend and make the transition from back to skirt much smoother.

I also love the Andis tool for the back coat. This tool is a bit finer than the Coat King, so will still get more coat out after using the coat king.

https://www.petedge.com/zpetedgemain/ca ... C289B3A8B6

Also, it helps to get more coat out if you do this on a wet, soapy coat.

Hope this helps.

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 Post subject: Re: thinning the skirt
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:31 pm 
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Thanks for the tips on both threads, Jackie. I've ordered the tools. I think I'll let her skirt go higher as you said - you are right - it's a bit low and by the time I blend, it might be all gone....LOL

I use the 7 on her back - I think I should 5 in winter now. Oh well....it takes only 3 weeks for her hair to grow back really fast on her back, so I'll post pics once I get better!

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 Post subject: Re: thinning the skirt
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:54 pm 
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MarciaM wrote:
How is that deshedding comb working? How long is your cocker coat/skirt? Thanks.


So far, I really like it. Unfortunately, my camera just broke so i cant take any pics, but you might be able to get a general idea on how long Teddy's coat is here. In this pic, his hair is about 4in long, right now its a bit shorter 3in maybe?

I dont have any decent pics of Princess without my kids in them - her coat is much thinner and straighter but I've stopped using clippers on her and just scissor her completely so her back is natural.


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IMG_1204.JPG
IMG_1204.JPG [ 115.12 KiB | Viewed 2607 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: thinning the skirt
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:31 pm 
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Thank you. I will buy the comb and try it.

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 Post subject: Re: thinning the skirt
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:54 pm 
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Cici wrote:
Has anyone tried combing up the top layer and using thinning shears on the layer beneath it, so it's lighter - or do I sound completely bonkers?


From reading groomer forums, I gather this is exactly what the pros do, referred to as "thinning from underneath".

Some suggestions though, depending on the look you want, may be what you are looking for:

If you de-bulk using the current skirt line, your pup will end up looking more like an English cocker.

If you let the skirt grow, no trimming except the underside/belly, the extra length will help weigh the coat down. (I'll call this the "mini-skirt" look, as opposed to the "tutu" look.) Then, when the rest of the coat reaches the same length as the belly hair, you de-bulk.

If you go up another inch or two from where you have the skirt start, you will have that much more hair weighing it down and more area to de-bulk from, if you choose to(might be fine for you without de-bulking).

The finished look should appear natural, not like the dog just came out of the beauty parlor. To that end, you want the skirt to slope cleanly and seamlessly off of the back.

I'm a visual creature, so here's a doodle I made for you:

Attachment:
Front View Grooming.png
Front View Grooming.png [ 27.11 KiB | Viewed 2453 times ]


Left is current skirt, middle is current skirt grown out to same length, right is raising line of where skirt starts.
Green area is where to let more skirt grow
Yellow area is where to de-bulk from.
Top three before de-bulk, bottom after de-bulk. How high up or down you do the thinning, I could not tell you, but my guess is if you do it too high, it'll end up frizzing out through to the top/causing more bulk exactly where you don't want it.


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 Post subject: Re: thinning the skirt
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:22 pm 
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Oh my goodness - Lizzy, thank you SO much for the doodle. I appreciate it so very much! This is incredibly helpful. I am going to print it! :joy

Agreed that her skirt line is too low. I stopped clipping her back for a bit to raise the skirt line. It's already looking better in less than a month.

A few weeks ago, I bought the mars coat king and it did help thin the skirt at the top two inches where it starts. Now her fur is lying much flatter and doesn't stick out. It looks blended. Plus it's growing.

I would say her skirt and legs are now 3.5 inches long. The challenge is scissoring her legs to keep them at a reasonable length that is not uncomfortable takes SO long. I can't take a blade to her legs - longest one i have is 3/4 inch and it will ruin it.

I do have one more question

How short does one cut or clip the belly hair, esp once the skirt hair comes down long enough. It looks goofy when too short and the skirt hair is not long enough to come down and conceal it. It's shorter than her skirt right now.

Are there any tips or trick on shaving their leg pits so hair doesn't get matted there. I get her to lie down on her back, but the space there is so tight, I don't want to hurt her. It takes my hubby holding her still for me to get it done somewhat comfortably. Don't know how groomers do it! whew

Thank you again!

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 Post subject: Re: thinning the skirt
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:20 pm 
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I am by no means a professional groomer... but when I do Jennie's leg-pits, I actually kneel in front of the grooming table (so I can see what I am doing) and hold her leg behind her "wrist" and lift it up and out while she is standing. That way I can stretch out the pit and get in good and close. She doesn't seem to mind it and I can keep it nice and short. I haven't had a mat there since I started doing that. She absolutely refuses to lay down on the table, much less turn over!

I keep her in a puppy cut, with the length varying based on the season. I keep her tummy pretty short all the time, so she is cool in the summer and dry in the winter. Here in Washington we need to pay more attention to getting wet from the rain than cold from snow. In fact, Jennie will be 2 in April and has only seen a one day dusting of snow so far. But she has come home with her legs and belly sopping wet from walking in tall, wet grass so many times I keep a towel by the door now to dry her off as we come in. And if she has found some nice, muddy dirt to stroll through I send her down the hall to "jump in the tub" to get her feet washed... and she does!

Isn't it fun to do the grooming yourself? I was so nervous when I first started, but now I actually enjoy it! And Jennie is better for me that for her other groomer. They keep telling me she was "pretty good, but very wiggly". :lol2

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 Post subject: Re: thinning the skirt
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:46 am 
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Thanks, Susan. Yes, it's fun doing the grooming myself, but very tiring and very time consuming. In the Summer, after the clipping is done, I can bathe her on the deck outside and towel dry her and gets dry in no time - so that cuts down on the labor.

In the winter, I need a good four + hours when her hair is long now and i am scissoring, then bathing, then drying, then vacuuming all the hair that blows off in the sunroom and then my hubby cleans the bath tub.

I just sold my metro airforce pet dryer. She HATES a hose pointing at her. It is so much faster than a human hairdryer, but she can't stand it. She accepts a hairdryer now, but it is so much slower with all her thick hair and curls.

The one time I tried leaving her wet because she hated being dried so much, she shivered and shivered even though i thoroughly towel dried her. I had to cover her in a blanket and put a heating pad on her back for 45 minutes! She loved it - didn't move once :lol3

It's about time for more pics of Jennie!

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 Post subject: Re: thinning the skirt
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:44 am 
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I know I've been really bad about taking any lately, so I'll make it a priority to get a new one up in the next few days. I'm in the middle of a remodel at my mom's house and Jennie is really bored to tears, so she will enjoy a bit of attention.

I was looking for a good picture of her when I came across this Cocker Cut chart. I can't remember where I got it but I found it helpful when I first started so hope others will as well.

Attachment:
cocker cut chart.JPG
cocker cut chart.JPG [ 69.2 KiB | Viewed 2385 times ]

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